Distinguishing between World of Warcraft and Second Life is a distinction between a game with objectives and goals, and a play environment without that.
Let me ask you this:
Do you care that WoW is an MMORPG?
If given the choice, would you prefer if WoW was a singleplayer game with local multiplayer and followers were expanded so you could do everything with NPCs and there wouldn’t be any other players in the game besides yourself and friends you invited to your server?
Because to me that “I don’t care” sound eeriely like “I pretend WoW is singleplayer”.
Cambridge is even acknowledging P2W does not have 1 definition and oppinions are different among people. It is on that very same page.
But also Cambridge says you need to get an advantage over players who do not pay. I mean, those people who buy boosts are getting boosted by players who do not pay. Says enough to me. Those people buy some catch up achievement, mount and gear in comparison to non-payers.
Designed in such a way as to allow players to exchange real-world currency for in-game benefits.
The WoW token fills this definition.
Urban Dictionary?
“Pay-to-win” or “P2W”, is a pejorative term for a game that offers any advantage that can be obtained faster or exclusively via commercial transactions over gameplay rewards or the impact of the player’s own performance.
It applies to the WoW token.
This term has not been entered into many dictionaries yet, but all that I can find anywhere applies to the WoW token.
Except yours and a few others in here, because you are coping very hard.
But on the other hand, not having full control over every situation because you can encounter actual people in the game adds charm to it as well; makes the world feel more alive and real.
It’s a hard call, honestly.
And that’s coming from someone who doesn’t interact a whole lot with other players in WoW (I do dungeons and LFR and such, but I hardly ever say anything).
Except the Urban Dictionary one, because it provides an example. But sure, here:
“Pay-to-win” or “P2W”, is a pejorative term for a game that offers any advantage that can be obtained faster or exclusively via commercial transactions over gameplay rewards or the impact of the player’s own performance.
This market practice is seen negative because it destroys the sportiveness of games, rewarding mediocre players who look for an easy way to beat the competition or the challenge, instead of promoting fair play.
Imagine, for example, an Archery competition where the archers could optionally buy the right to use laser-dot scope aims in their bows Every archer would look to exploit that artificial advantage, instead of actually improving themselves at the sport.
It’s not “or”. Again it depends on what each individual person values as “winning”. The person who only plays for the story will go and see someone with 100 parces and all the BiS gear and go “but he didn’t do LFR so he hasn’t won yet”.
But money doesn’t trump skill though. In most other games that have the label of P2W, money doe trump skill, no matter how skilled you are you will not be able to beat someone with exclusive paywall items.
I would argue that I believe that WoW is an MMORPG more than most people on this forum.
Nope. I think follower dungeons are a bad move. Sure I do support WoW having more single player options/activities but mostly I preffer the Massive Multiplayer elements.
Yes you are. Just because I do not care what you have, does not mean that I want to play alone. Let me put it this way, I really do not care if you have… let’s go with Anu’relos, because it’s the most recent Mythic only mount… so yeah wheter you have Anu’relos or not I would probably like to play with you, because I like playing with people. I also like helping new players and forming communities and/or guilds with random people (granted in DF I have mostly focused on only playing with my firends). Your pixels how ever do not affect me at least.
That comes up so much that I feel there is a cognitive barrier here that cannot be surpassed because one part is more emotionally invested and another approaches it rationally.
It is essential to distance personal feelings of fulfillment from the discussion and think about what “gameplay integrity” and “achievement integrity” genuinely mean when taking them by themselves and not making them relational or comparative. These concepts are rooted in the principles of effort, skill, and time, as Jito has succinctly displayed in this thread.
Now, if we consider effort, skill, and time to have intrinsic value, then achieving something in a game without resorting to swiping a credit card inherently holds greater intrinsic value, do you agree?
Now, the crux of the matter here is that without even considering individual players or in-game objectives in relation to others, the very possibility of bypassing these essential elements of time, effort and skill by simply swiping a credit card undermines the integrity of the game.
Why? Because it allows RL financial capability and merit-based progression to coexist, diluting the core principles that make the game meaningful.
This does not mean that me and you cannot get a sense of fulfilment from doing whatever we have set out to do in the game. This is completely beside the point. That focus on the self does not matter at all in a logical discussion. It is reductio ad absurdum and is part of the reason we are going in circles in this thread.
There is no element of WoW’s gameplay that does not benefit from getting gold or pets or mounts. So that’s irrelevant unless you remove any and all definition.
Besides: No, winning does not depend on whether you value it or not. I don’t know where you got that one from.
My definition of winning is consistent, yours (and many others’) is coiling around trying desperately to evade the simple and obvious truth.
Huh? If you’ve bought yourself a level boost to 70 and set it up against my level 1 character - we’ve put in an equal amount of effort - I won’t defeat you even if I am the world champion and you don’t even know how to use a keyboard. I may well die instantly to an autoattacking pet or a passive thorns-like effect.
But you aren’t approaching it rationally. You are also having an emotional investement, just the polar opposite of our.
Mine is consistent a well. Does someone out dps me- yes he won over me, no- I won. Simple as that. The definitions of my previous posts might sound inconsistent because that is my point, everyone values what a win is subjectively. 1 player wants story so loremaser is a win, 1 player values transmog so “All the things” is the win, 1 player values parces so “details” is the win.
And yet you need to wait for a boost to become purchasable in the store. If I start day 1 I will have an army of level 70 alts while you still waiting for Blizzard to allow you to buy a level 70 boost. If you buy all the boosts and get all the gear chanses are you are probably getting out dps-ed by healers even with your BiS gear.
You seem to have a hard time wrapping your head around many things as it seems. Not in this thread alone. You keep parroting what some old WoW dev has said like it’s gospel, and go surprise pikachu face whenever someone diasgrees. “Oh my stars and garners, this person does not agree with Kein Jordan”.
Saving time. Which again if you value that, go on ahead. Pay money to play and then pay more money to complain you have nothing more to do, while being declined for every group you sing up for. Clearly a win right?
Okay, so let’s take you - new character for the season, ready to go. You get into a group in which there is a person who started just like you, but instead of merely logging in when you did, he instead bought 1.5 million gold and gave it to 4 people who then proceeded to do +10’s while he stood at the entrance and did homework, and give him all the loot for hours and hours, and so now he has really good gear and all the achievements.
He is much worse than you - he does maybe 60% of the damage you would do if you had his gear. But you do not have his gear because he swiped his credit card, so you lose on the meter.
Did he pay2win?
Well, if he earned 1.5 million gold in the game, I would say no; he earned the right to buy all that gear by playing the game well. But if he swiped the card…
Now, you have two possible answers:
Your current definition of winning is wrong, thus making your definition inconsistent
Your current definition of winning is correct, thus making it pay2win.
Good luck wiggling yourself out of that one.
Way faster progression, more practice following it.
Go take a look at what the top guilds in race to world first do, then come back to me and say what you just said once more with a straight face.
I asked if you are here for the MMORPG experience or if you’re mostly interested in playing a singleplayer experience in a multiplayer game?
Because if it’s the latter, then I can better understand where that attitude of “I don’t care what other players do” comes from.
If it’s the former, then I’m still perplexed.
Okay, so we’re back to a subjective thing. Exactly as I said earlier.
There’s so many subjective factors to this thing, that players will never fully agree on it.
Oh for sure, not a waste of money that makes someone look pathetic at all.
Well nothing - he did nothing as well. He just stood at the entrance.
But even if you did play normally, he got more gear because a bunch of even better geared players gave everything to him, thus getting him 2 times as much gear per run.
