Hello!
I am wondering why so called “recommended build” for m+ by wowhead/icyveins (whoever copied from who) does not include: “earthwarden” ,“Ursoc’s fury”, “improved survival instincts”, “reinvigoration”, “layered mane”
Both ursoc and earthwarden absorb a lot, 15% and 13% of 20k hps overall, and two charges of survival instincts , 30% faster recharge of frenzied regeneration, chance for free ironfur or frenzied regen are nice as well.
Thanks!
Is it possible that the talents that you’re losing by using them are somehow better?
Also it’s honestly possible that they don’t have actual great bears working on them, as I doubt they hired ‘‘class experts’’ for every class. If you believe the talents to be better, use them. Or, like, talk to other bear players, see their point of view, it might help!
Talent lost is : " after the wildfire" which is nice, but surely can not replace several good talents.
Uh, i’ve inspected many guardians and almost all opted for wowhead/icyveins build, as that is what people do.
Stumbled on only few people with different builds.
To be honest, I never use other sites for builds. I like to tinker with them and designing the strongest one on my own. Its a part of the fun for me. But today as an exception I went to the icy veins to check out frost dk build. Mainly because I was curious what others have to say about the build that I have some experience with and I was shocked. Pvp build from ice veins didnt included nearly any of survivability talents and frostwyrms fury (basically the strongest hitting ability with additional 3s cc). Now I understand why some people complain about low dk survivability. If they copy builds like this, Im not surprised at all. And the conclusion is - its better to use your own head than trusting other people to do it for you. The difference may be massive. I just cant imagine playing with build from icy veins.
God yes. Played outlaw rogue and i didn’t want to underperform on my first mythic 0 so i wanted to copy a build. 0 defensive talents
How am i supposed to survive high keys?
Safe to say that my leveling build was way more comfy even with the few % dps loss so I’m playing it
Because the Moonfire based ‘laser bear’ is currently stronger.
Fully upgraded moonfire based ‘laser bear’ is part of the build which does includes “earthwarden” ,“Ursoc’s fury”, “improved survival instincts”, “reinvigoration”, “layered mane”
You can see " Elune’s favored" in details print screen.
Fully upgraded laser bear that skips incarn. Any build works in low keys, but if you want to do high keys, you’ll need your major defensive CD.
Btw, what is the point of incarnation without thrash absorb?
Increased HP, 100% longer duration, and you also need the talent below it that reduces the CD.
You seem to be looking at this from a self-healing perspective only, but there’s a lot more to it than that. There’s also damage and keeping aggro, which go hand in hand. On big pulls with dps popping CDs, you need to be able to spam thrash to get aggro. Or you need to always play with a hunter or rogue to help you.
As for this:
Your claim that After the Wildfire is the only talent lost is disproved by the image you posted above, and it’s a massively powerful talent to lose. With the amount of AOE damage that’s going out in DF dungeons, healers are under a lot of pressure. Don’t underestimate the value of a talent that passively heals the whole group.
There’s no point in you staying alive if the rest of the group dies.
But I’d suggest going to Dreamgrove and asking about this there. You’ll find a lot more guardian players to discuss it with.
Regular berserk does that as well 
, but like i said you choose between rend and tear or incarnation depending on dungeon.
Every 3 minutes, for 15 seconds. The problem guardian had during season 3 was that it could only do a big pull every 3 minutes. That’s why you need the reduced CD.
Your ‘several defensive talents’ also heal the group, do they?
And you’re also trying to pretend you didn’t drop 3 other talents (2 defensive and 1 offensive) to get the bottom left corner of the tree.
It’s way more possible and probable that wowhead builds works with a certain gameplay style that may not reflect the ones of the majority of players.
Yes, that would be several.
No, they don’t heal the grp.
How am i pretending, i’ve mark them in MS paint?
IcyVeins and wowhead will usually post the most optimal spreadsheet build, but of course individual playstyle varies
I prefer the thrash spam, and all the passive effects that come with that, others prefer the cooldown management builds, it’s all personal preference, if you aren’t cutting edge raiding it’s all splitting hairs about what build is ‘‘best’’
Build for mmorpgs from sites are mostly starting points, based off spreadsheets and clinical conditions. You`re supposed to adapt them to you and the challenges youre facing.
As many have correctly stated, the builds often dont incorporate the need to keep yourself alive, since Icy Veins bases its builds around perfect players with perfect tanks and healers.
DUUUUDE!! i m almost using the same build as urs ( i created myself) . Although i m not using rend and tear and i prefer dream of cenarius or if i want some burst spams i drop this point into Incarn… reason i gave up on icyveins wowheads build was that i was feeling rly squishy missing all absorbs and self heals along with the uptime of defensives… dunno how it is in super high keys but right now i feel tank and my dps is rly nice
Use murlok dot io for M+ and PVP
Well, I could be wrong, but don’t those builds usually do have earth warden, which procs from Trash? Personal experience showed me that Earthwarden was actually a bigger percentage of my total absorption than Ursoc’s Fury (both with and without incarn builds). Seeing how Ursoc’s Fury scales better with your own damage, but Earthwarden with the enemy’s damage, the higher the difficulty, the more Earthwarden will outshine Ursoc’s Fury. So I assume that’s part of the reasoning behind Incarn still being a defensive cooldown, even without Ursoc’s Fury (however in the upcoming changes, Trash CD will be only reduced 50% if not mistaken. I wonder if it’ll still be as popular/strong then).
I’d just like to say, you’re not only giving up After the Wildfire (which is very RNG’ish and does a ton of overhealing most of the time, but sometimes gives those clutch heals that I love), but also reduced cooldown on Barkskin/Survival Instincts, reduced cost on Ironfur (also RNG’ish though), and by skipping Circle of Life and Death you lose quite a bit of Arcane DMG = Arcane healing.
Having said all that, the joy of this new talent system, is that you can indeed mix stuff around and build it to your liking. And if it works for you, good for you!
ps: Just one more note on Ursoc’s Fury, at ilvl 380+, with the empowered Maul talent, Incarnation AND the flashing paws (or what it’s called now, extra trash procs), it still did less total absorb than the ring from the Cobalt rep. (This could also be partly due to pull sizes etc and other factors. This is just a friendly tip to farm that ring if you like absorbs :). Will take you a couple of hours max. Less if you group up.)
Wrong character, my bad.