WoW's lore has become too soft and weak

Lore Story
41

Late to the topic, but I’ll give my two cents.

See, blame the new age and the easily offended glass generation. People take everything personal these days. There is no room for fantasy, dark stories, gore. They removed the word btch because some dev’s kid was playing the game.

The game lore is soft because the new generation is soft. We shield them from everything that makes life… life. These stories, as harsh as they were sometimes, evoked real people and real life. The dangers, the horrors of war, the abuse, human stupidity and satire, all these were flavorful and relatable.

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42

This, this so much. I just saw that new trailer. Disgusting! It’s NOT warcraft, it’s Pixar or Disney. Some dwarf girl with freckles yahoo’ing on a dragon with big ooooo and aaaaa moments that utterly fail to tell a story other than ‘look at dragon and be impressed’.

Made for babies. Aweful!

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43

I am not sure I agree with all of the points outlined here. I mean, the observations are correct, but overidealization of the past doesn’t mean that the past was necessarily good.

Yes. 20 years ago, the game was created by dudes and intended for dudes. The old leadership was almost entirely made up by dudes. Metzen. Ghostcrawler. Fargo. All of these dudes no longer work for Blizzard. The current team is more diverse. This is quite true, and the game does try to cater more to women and minorities.

But were the old times good? I don’t think so. Remember that Blizzard got sued for “frat boy” culture? That was an extreme example of things going wrong with the company, but it was not the only example. I felt that certain Blizzcon activities actually promoted a bully culture. Remember the arrogant answers the devs gave to players? Remember the Corpsegrinder debacle and inacceptable behavior?

And while you may say “ok, the company culture was bad, so what, we got a good product?” No.

The product wasn’t that good.
The lore suffered.

The Old culture portrayed the Horde as savage, but good brutes. They led wars, destroyed Alliance cities, but in the end were always forgiven. And frankly, this was offensive for Alliance players. Because the Alliance was purposely portrayed to be consisted of weaklings.

The Alliance lore suffered ever since the start of the Burning Crusade. Metzen forgot about the draenei? All cool characters turned Horde or neutral? They forgot about Gilneas? These were real flaws in the old times when only the Horde storyline was written and the Alliance was neglected, existing only to support the Horde one.

So… are the OP’s concerns about the lore getting more soft, disney-like and focused on feelings rather than real warfare? True. But there are good things that can be noted. For example, the factions get treated equally. Did you see the cinematic today? We had a troll… and a… (DEEP BREATH) Wildhammer dwarf!

The team talks more about diversity and representation in real-life, but we also get good diversity in-game too. The old lore was about orcs vs humans. Cool side races like the taunka were forgotten for ages. And even the orcs and humans weren’t represented correctly. It was mostly about Thrall (which was rumored to be Metzen’s personality) and Varian. Nothing else. Back in Siege of Orgrimmar the night elves and the gnomes made a cameo appearance. They never had their cool moments.

Recent WoW lore may be soft, but we have good moments too - clashes between Sylvanas and Tyrande, love for the night elves. The Maldraxxus storyline was anything but soft.

And I’m certain that Dragonflight will have its epicness. Remember that Pandaria was blamed to be too soft because of eww fluffy pandas? We also got the yangoul, the Ally vs Horde war, Zandalari troll wars.

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44

Interesting take on the story.

In WLK the Horde had to suffer the Forsaken insurrection.

In Cata and MoP the Horde had to commit several war crimes and eventually deal with a Civil War where the Alliance assisted the winning side, vowing to end the Horde if the Horde ever got up to their usual shenanigans.

In BFA the Horde had to suffer yet another civil war that no one in a million years could have predicted because Sylvanas was portrayed as the most morally grey character that had ever morally greyed, and once again this war was resolved with the help of the Alliance.

Come Shadowlands the Horde didn’t really have proper leadership, and while I haven’t really been following the story I don’t think that any of the loose threads since the end of BFA have been addressed, still.

But sure, the factions are equal.

The story of World of Warcraft has been on a downwards trajectory for years. Maybe, just maybe, the MMO genre is not the optimal genre for complex, character-driven storytelling. But all the other MMOs are doing it so I guess I’m wrong.

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The MMORPG genre does limit you in a certain way.

Blizzard simply cannot afford a story, according to which the Alliance or Horde will be completely destroyed. This was possible in RTS, when the Alliance was obliterated by the scourge or the Horde was destroyed and all orcs were sent to internment camps.

But in a MMORPG setting you always need an Alliance and Horde. A World War II-like ending when Germany was defeated, split in two and Berlin divided by a wall, cannot happen in World of Warcraft.

Only a World War I-stalemate is possible.

Yet, this doesn’t mean that you can’t create compelling characters. They still have to act, still have to react to what’s happening. Which is not always the case here. For example, The Argent Crusade acted in a bubble and Tirion Fordring did nothing against the Forsaken when they re-plagued Western Plaguelands after it being healed.

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I find it really hard to care about WoW’s office culture, when my only relation to it is the product that I care for. And no one can tell me that delivering the product they delivered back then neccessiated a toxic work environment. I really don’t care how they get to it, if I could chose between the superficial power metal fantasy they had back then and the superficial family-friendly disneyesque fantasy they are moving to now, I prefer the power metal, thank you very much.

It’s also of note tha many of the creative heads actually left WoW at its height, which kinda undermines the idea that their vision was what led to the toxicity we might have had in the past years.

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47

We’ve had 4 consecutive expansions of grimdark war. I’m happy for the break and a return to traditional fantasy exploration.

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I’d say we just had multiple expansions where they tried to do an epic drama and horribly failed. We’ve had more than one era of WoW up until now. Legion to Shadowlands was quite different from Cata to WoD, which was quite different from vanilla to WotLk. Not only in gameplay, but in the way they approached the story. And DF seems to be another big shift. I don’t think anyone thinks that BfA and SL were “the good old times”. Pretty much any directional change from SL would be a good one. But that doesn’t make any change they can make equal, and we can certaily compare the virtues of them disneyfying aganist them doing stupid, overly masculine fun or any other direction.

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Ooooookay, there is a lot to unpack here.

  1. The old times were better. There is a reason WoW was king then and is court jester now. They crafted a game that challenged people, brought people together in a vivid world that didn’t pull its punches. Not in terms of gameplay and not in terms of lore.

  2. Company culture doesn’t matter one lick. I heard about what happened and yea, ‘F that jazz’ but there is NO reason that a frat boy culture can’t work if leadership acts firmly when boundaries are crossed. In fact, lots of game companies are or were guy-places. At Blizzard, the leadership was too weak to act on removing the bad apples and it soured. The fallout they got was earned. But to claim this is related to the game’s quality? Nah, go away.

  3. The horde WERE brutes and a lot of people that chose horde wanted that rougher, more primal side. They weren’t forgiven, it was war, we killed them, they killed us. So don’t gimme this horde being offensive to alliance players nonsense please. I played Alliance, I didn’t like how the leaders cozied up to the horde, that was all that bothered me. Them getting away with it? It’s fine, we would just kill some more of them next time. Not to mention the horde got shafted with their leadership. Geebus.

  4. Diversity doesn’t equal quality. In fact, on the altar of diversity, so many good stories have died, it’s actually tragic. Also, look at what we have now… that scene of the freckled female dwarf whee’ing on a dragon was so childish and lame that I actually cringed seeing it. My face crumpled up like paper.

  5. Clash between Sylvanas and Tyrande was extremely anti-climactic. Tyrande should have choked her to death then and there. Jailor could always bring her back or something but they copped out. Terrible storytelling and lame ending to a pretty decent story arc the current writers didn’t even come up with.

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this exactly.

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Shadowlands: Extremely detached and nonsensical plot where we go into the afterlife to kill ghosts and cull wildlife… in the afterlife? What? Terrible character arcs and storylines. Was it dark? Yes. Was it cool grimdark? Hell no, I’ve seen Saturday cartoons doing villains better.

BfA: Started decent, Sylvanas muh kween nonsense, then suddenly U-turn and it’s about the naga and Azshara… then robots… and another U-turn and now it’s old gods… meanwhile Magni is ranting in a horrible accent about the blood of a world soul… terrible!

Legion: Legit decent but lost it’s mojo near the end. Titans dead, no still alive, Who was Argus? Sargeras is now a space cloud. Robots, mechsuits, spaceship, giants lasers? Ohgod… can we have WC3 Burning Legion back please?

WoD: Time travel and dimentional travel that opens up so many plotholes and loopholes that nothing matters? Why save Azeroth where there are infinite Azeroths where we’re all fine? Grom bad… no Grom good. Archimonde is back? No Archimonde never left… what?

Pandas: Kunfu Panda, the game. Didn’t have anything to do with Warcraft and had way too much monk nonsense. Temple of this, shrine of that. Oh look it’s China. Just a coincidence, people. Don’t mention Hong Kong.

Cataclysm: Deathwing’s back, and he’s cuuuuhraaazy. Yelling at the top of his lungs about twilight. We know, those movies are bad, just burn me already, just don’t remind me. Then time travel. Green Jesus, the aspects lose their powers. Again? Now he’s tentacles. Wait, what was his plan again? Ok nvm!

We’re due a good ol’ Warcraft expansion. With the factions rebuilding and conquering, the horde claiming Kalimdor by force, the Alliance retaking Lordearon by force. But the world is still damaged by so much war. The fallout is giving them problems while they’re at eachother throats.

But what do we get? How to Train your Dragon, with Freckles and Trollboi oooo’ing at a big dragon and hordes of fans being blinded by the glamour. There can’t be many OG’s left by now. This is a mockery of Warcraft’s Legacy. I bet even Metzen would admit it if he didn’t care about the drama it would cause.

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52

While I despise what happens in big corporations worldwide and Blizzard is no exception, but the game was not intended for men only. So women did not experience the war crimes? Women do not kill and abuse? This is hardly men only territory.

Actually only in the past years the goodie goodie Alliance has been pushed on us. Back in the day Alliance did lots of morally grey stuff. There were strong leaders who took questionable decisions for the good of their people, or their own. I would say this is pushed on us more much since Anduin took a leading role.

They had a big bias for the Horde and I do admit that to an extent, but this is a little far from the topic. We are talking about the fairytale rainbows and puppies that we’re dealing with now in comparison to the old stories. Alliance was portrayed as the good guys but there was lots of room for interpretation, hence the many Alliance fans wearing their badge with pride.

Thrall’s Horde was also portrayed as the good guys and they were never intended to be evil with the exception of Forsaken.

It was all supposed to be in a constant battle of different perspectives and approaches.

I’m sorry I couldn’t disagree more. I think the Horde clearly got the villain bat and Alliance the punching bag, which is hardly equal. I can’t be the only one remembering what happened the past few expansions.

That was hardly a good moment. It felt like some anime inspired action scene where both protagonists had godly powers and were battling because… Sylvanas was missing half her soul and burned a tree full of elves. It’s a matter of taste I guess but to me that was too much of a stretch. Not to mention the push for strong independent women that is getting ridiculous. And that’s coming from a woman.

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But we don’t get to see the memories being flayed from them one by one, the screams of agony as their identities are torn apart, no wailing and crying as they stop recognizing a world they once knew. No madness and screaming as they descend into insanity, full of fear of everything and everyone, and devolve into just base spirits that lash out at everything. We don’t get that happening to a named character, who we end up killing in the end. No happy ending. This is Warcraft.

I think this says a lot more about you than it does about the game. Why do you enjoy this? Yes, it’s a game about war, but does war always refer to the clashing of arms? Think about that. War a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism; a struggle or competition between opposing forces.
Can it not, then, also be a political, psychological war? Times change, war ≠ physical force and the use of weaponry.

Yes, Warcraft was a ‘manly’ game, I’m saying it. Written by dudes in the 90’s for dudes in the 90’s.

What’s more, is something you mentioned yourself. The game was made in the 90s. It is now moving with the times and adapting quite well, in fact. If it was like it was then, the warcraft franchise wouldn’t exist today. Back then, the game was very 2-Dimensional and all the characters had on their minds was blood, terror, and war. Nowadays, however, they’re a lot more 3-Dimensional and have actual emotion. They cry, suffer, grieve, and laugh - as we do - don’t you think it makes them a lot more believable and is a testament to good storytelling?

Let’s take Sylvanas as an example. You probably wanted us to just kill her and move on, right? That’s war, right? Well, she got confined to the maw where she still is now, collecting all the souls she condemned for her atonement; there are so many characters and people who have yet to forgive her. Isn’t that a lot more believable?
I honestly wanna thank whoever’s writing these stories right, cuz they’re great!

I get it, we’re human and most of us dislike change. But we have to accept it if we can’t do anything about it. We live in a world where men have emotions and women have rights; and the game needed to change in order to appeal to a modern, diverse audience.

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I might have to leave this forum or get myself banned because the amount of ridiculous posts I’m replying to is downright depressing.

First off, why do I like this? Because only a scene that dares show the ugly, can have meaning when it shows the beauty. Perhaps the audience of this game is now too young and sheltered to understand this but that is how deep stories can be told. A journey that treks into the dark, has much more meaning when it earns its journey into the light than one that never dares to enter the dark and pretends it doesn’t exist. This results in shallow storytelling, superficial drama and melodramatic empty speeches. A lot of the writing is completely hollow because there’s no soul, no grit. Talk to people who live in harsh environs, they understand.

War can be many things and yes, warfare can be political and psychological. But none of this is done either. And I wonder if people even know how such a story might be told. It’s not about psychologically tormenting one person such as they would sure show it - that wars go. And at the end of the day, one needn’t look far to see that what actually wins wars IS force and use of weapons. If you think that’s not true, maybe read the news.

This franchise didn’t adapt. It’s was butchered and its body parts were re-arranged into a golem that caters to an audience that would pay up. Everything that Warcraft was, is dead. You say it adapted to a modern audience? Wrong. The old audience is very much still around. The game choose to cater to younger, more spend-happy audience with lower standards. And it pays the bills so that’s where we are.

Sylvanas’ ending? I was surprized. I would have found it satisfying to see her dead - again - but Tyrande condemning her to something worse while also helping her own people was well done. Fitting of a many millennia old priestess and a wise choice. Even a defected clock is right twice a day and whoever wrote that, did a good job on it.

As for your rant about crying and emotions. Go back and read my original post. Such characters are weaklings, and unworthy of the spotlight. I’m not saying they can have no emotion but there’s a difference between handing your feelings with dignity and stern resolve in the face of danger and crying like a pathetic loser because the world is just so harsh.

Your little woke speech at the end might have given me herpes. Everything wrong with modern storytelling right there. Just ban me, Activision, release me from this hellhole of dimwits.

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55

What are you talking about? Pandaren have been in the lore since WC3, wich was released in 2002 while Kung Fu Panda was released in 2008.

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As an April fools joke and an inside joke because one guy at Blizz loved hiding panda’s in his work. He even put panda faces on warglaives of demon hunters.

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To put it bluntly the only context in which carny :ox::poop: from behind the scenes concerns the customer is when the product fails to deliver, which it over the recent years most certainly did.

The current team is trapped, in a straightjacket of allegory and especially BfA suffered for this monumentally, because Blizz couldn’t portray their chosen ones as anything less than ideal, which kind of makes the entire narrative of mutual enimity crumble, on top of assassinating pretty much all characters involved.

Diversity is just worthless noise, when it has no substance. (Both IRL and any fiction)

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58

Here’s an unpopular opinion:

I thought the attack on Teldrassil was the first time WoW had bold storytelling with real stakes and actual emotional impact since the time when Garrosh was warchief.

Having said that, WoW has pretty consistently had cartoon storytelling where the good guys always win and nobody ever really dies. They tried (and failed) to lean into some edgier stuff with the Shadowlands and their cosmology chart thing. It didn’t work out. In fact, it completely bombed.

Now they are coming up with a MoP style palate cleanser of an expansion, for both WoW itself and the company branding. Expect them to lean heavily into the Pixar-esque from this point forward.

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In context, or in isolation? Because I get it in isolation, but considering the crappy motivations behind Sylvanas’ decision, the ridiculous way catapults just burned it from the shore, and the Night Elf plotline being mostly about letting go of their hate once again, istead of playing the high stakes game, it is a very low point for me.

And at this point I just don’t trust Blizzard with high stakes at all. So I’m pretty fine with lowering the stakes… But that doesn’t necessarily mean changing the tone. Looking at DF they certianly will change it, but they don’t have to, to avoid that particular pitfall.

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Tbh the stakes were taken out back with a shotgun, when we found Saurfang in the stockades, he was completely fine and chose to stay there, with no consequences. Sylvanas’s retconned motivations and using demolishers instead of say warlocks is pretty much just icing, in terms of BfA. SL is a whole other level of mess, because it basically vindicated everything Sylvanas did since her actions enabled the afterlife to be fixed.