No ty for this, just going to unbalance things more, I don’t think people understand that lol
What are you referring to with “this”?
Hey Razien, I stumbled over here from your link on the other thread. Looks like you got it covered here, but I figure backup is never a bad thing…
You don’t seem to know much about the old talent system, the choice given through the options available was huge, much more expansive than what we currently have, that is a fact. Blizz changed it with the intention to improve it, but the problem they were trying to correct only got worse.
They wanted to simplify the choice and make it easier to make, varying between all of the abilities being good and all of them being equally bad, or one being the obvious choice… this makes players feel like they don’t have a choice, they are merely picking what’s best for the situation.
The current talent system was designed as an initial prune to abilities as in MoP specs were already becoming oversaturated. Core abilities were put in tiers to be decided against eachother. Blizz straight up went and admitted is that it was to simplify it. Less choices that did have an impact but not a huge one, against 1/10th of the choices where the impact was huge. Players mostly hated it raiding MSV, HoF or ToES…
6 years down the line, we’ve had a few more prunes and those core abilities are still choices!! Another reason talents need redoing is because so many rotations that have been fun, are just plain stale and not great to play.
The original trees made progression feel linear and progressive. Currently it feels like I’m a lackey levelling for food in the form of a talent or ability whenever I’m levelling an alt. The progression doesn’t feel like progression. It’s mundane and spikey. I don’t want to feel like a pet getting a treat every 15 levels.
Just because a choice may seem insignificant, doesn’t make it uninteresting. Player agency is something people are fighting for on other forum threads in the form of vendors, less RNG and specs like outlaw rogue players complaining about bad bones rolling. More choice would translate into more ownership of your character. It would simplify the process aswell, rather than changing almost every numerical piece of programming in the game, to strip out a system, replace it with an old one slightly revamped with retuned numbers and implement the abilities that everyone picks anyway into the class, either via level unlocking or as part of the talent tree.
Part of the progressiveness came from how they linked it and really built your character up to it, Razien mentioned the LK/cata sub talents:
My favourite part of this, was part of the Sub tree… you’d choose the 3 points in tier 2 for increased bleed damage from garrote/rupture (4/8/12 I’m pretty sure it was) then 2 tiers later that would lead directly into being able to add Hemorrhage to your spellbook. That’s progressive, your character develops their understanding of bleeds, then learns how to do a new one.
Take DKs aswell, increased attack speed on the unholy tree leading into Unholy Frenzy.
It just adds to the feel of your character learning and progressing in a way that gives merit to the fantasy of it all.
The unfortunate thing is, however, that Blizz have proved time and time again recently that they are lazy. If WoW was a house, all of the leaks that have been appearing recently would have been covered in duct tape in a way to try to temporarily fix it. They don’t replace, renew or rediscover. They don’t admit mistakes. They add in quick fixes, cover ups and justifications. I won’t get into it too much in this thread.
An overhaul of the talent system would be a rediscovery to try to fix the problem. Obviously it wouldn’t be flawless, and it wouldn’t be the only part of the solution. A level squish would be a quick fix that would cause a bigger problem in 6 months time.
Other solutions:
I don’t see the need to say something again myself when someone else has already said it more than adequately.
I almost completely agree with Razien on everything he has said, on most of the threads on this topic.
To those who are retail-loving BfA kids, good for you 
we might be the cringey old people who will sod off to classic when it opens, but there is a reason that will be the case.
Peace and love homies 
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you assumed wrong. I do know the old talent system
it was crap and it got changed into something better.
Heyy! Thanks I really appreciate the back-up! It’s very tiresome to do this by myself 
Jump in anytime you’d like! I enjoy the conversation.
Those are Gear bonuses btw, Tier-sets. Not talent tiers/branches, my bad I should have specified that. I’ll go and make an edit to do so
Tier-1: Nightslayer.
Tier-2: Bloodfang.
Tier-2.5: Deathdealer.
Tier-3: Bonescythe.
Your point still stands, though!
True! Warriors had the same thing with Improved Rend 0/3 and then receiving Deep Wounds 0/3 as the next one, with Impale 0/2 as the final third one.
And that’s where we disagree. You keep giving such short answers without any explanation how or why. Give us some good arguments, unless you can’t…?
You aren’t even trying to have a conversation about this.
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I just noticed Bellular’s video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sgNmZvJuYc
Top comment
The Squirrel King: “Building a better system” For God’s sake you HAD better systems, just go back to them. It’s painfully simple."
624 upvotes at the time of me typing this.
I suppose that we’re not even remotely close to alone in this after all. I just wish that more of us were active on the forums.
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It doesn’t help that Bliz practically ignored forums feedback for so many expansions now (started with WoD?) we all became volatile, their fault. Not ours, BfA was warned about on the beta by Preach since the start it would be badly designed. Heck almost everybody did, people who watched saw it and who played it. What did we get? 0 fixes, 0 changes, feedback deleted, Preach has to mend his relationship purely due to negative feedback and more CMs fired! Oh joy! It’s almost like the devs can’t take criticisme at all. The players since WoD gave so many good ideas for good additions or changes to the game, all of it was ignored.
Yet we still have the devs call the few remaining frustrated playerbase the reason why they don’t. YOU CREATED US! Btw GJ firing all the CMs who actually did their job but keeping the ones who hardly or never respond (except in post a picture of your cat or transmog thread)! If this was customer service I got at a restaurant I would go to anathor restaurant.
Look at reddit, it’s now either memes, fanart or negative feedback. Bar 1 WoW youtuber have either quit WoW, are negative about and or neutral (tryign to stay positive but failing). People were cheering for the ban they got getting the old XP pot back back (MoP and Winter Veil WoD, 300% for 1 hour) saying they didn’t plan to play anyhow and saved alot of tons grinding through old mundane content. The people literally say they rather exploit chars to 120 than to play the game even at the risk of a 1 month ban. Heck if I had the will to level through eleven year old zones I would have done it. People rather skip all content till endgame than to play it, something is wrong. It’s the game not the players. But all the devs can do is point to paid 110 boost to skip it instead of fixing it.
Sorry for the rant but yeah many people are this way nowadays including me. All I can hope they will actually open an open Q&A and answer the the questions that matters:
-Why was the pot bug ingame for 5 months (includes PTR)?
-Why did you allow the alchemist tool to complety wreck the flaks economy?
-Why can people still abuse sap-vanish bug on rogue to kill/cheese mythic Jaina easier?
-Why do you only act if it threathens a store boost?! People were doing this exact trick to 1-shot mage tower bosses and you never stepped in.
-How come classes that are beyond bad on beta get into live and still not get fixed untill 6 months later (Legion)?
-Why keep introducing more RNG whenever players quit when the old systems retained more players since instead of TF, you also worked towards powerfull rep or crafted items? Every boss you killed got a step closer and you almost knew exactly or exactly when you would have that sweet trinket or crafted plate legs.
There is alot to fix now with BfA alone let’s not take leveling into it aswell or the dead old world. But atleast having a honest and open discussion would be nice for a change instead of cherry picking the questions. If I see something negative or buggy I’m not gonna sweet it up, I point to it and say why it’s bad and even how to improve/fix it.
Cant take you serious its like a Cata revamp with stat and item lvl change again baked into one and adding less levels you have no idea what you are talking about as usual .
Both times they have done stats squish they have messed up raids and dungeons (legacey) so i do not trust them to do a level “squish” which you say is easy but then again you are well know for troll and bait threads.
I dont think they where good i hated the classic tree’s and TBC tree’s ,wotlk did it a little better imho .
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It’s fine if that’s your opinion, I’m not asking for the exact same tbc-vanilla-wotlk talent trees. I’m just saying… use that format. That system. That style of talent tree.
I dont want the squish at all as i know full well it will be done wrong and badly and wreck things for collectors .
Yeah me too. I have no faith in a squish at all. (And regardless of faith, even if they pull it off magnificently – I still don’t want a squish. It’s a horrible change either way.)
I do however trust them to try the old style of talent trees again.
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It will simpy, require the same amount of time/XP or even more even with it, I bet on that. So doing it is useless.
Nobody seems to be able to give me an argument in favor of it either, so there’s that.
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It would be a nice start but if that’s the only thing theyre going to do it’ll be as impactful as a cosmetic change to a gray item
Maybe as part of a big change to leveling or as one of a series of smaller changes to improve the leveling experience
Some of the pruning has to be undone atleast or you’ll still risk knowing all your abilities by level 40 not counting talents, some classes have so few active spells you can go for 10 levels without getting something new to click
Maybe a new talent system, combining the current and the old one, say you have the same amount of talents as now, are also able to choose only one talent per row, but you get 2 more talent points you can invest in other talent specs, only being able to unlock the lowest two of one other talent tree at most and only after you filled out all the talents for your own role or make it so you cannot spend more then 2 talents outside of your chosen role or whatever to start with
Here is the big difference, I provided facts that show the old talent system didn’t work for them that at the time were written by the lead game designer and trying to dispute what he wrote back then doesn’t help you in anyway because most of what he wrote is inapplicable to the design today but if they haven’t changed the talent system since then it just proves that it works for them contrarily to what you would like to believe.
There’s no post from the dev team saying “the current talent system doesn’t work and we are thinking to replace it” so when you say “it doesn’t work” you merely state your own opinion and no one else which I respect and completely disagree.
Even if the current talent system wouldn’t have worked for them I have a really hard time to believe that they will say “Yeah! the old talent system is the solution! let’s go back to it.”.
The thing that really baffles me is how people went from a level squish to talent system revamp. 
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Look, we tried the talent tree model for seven years. We think it’s fundamentally flawed and unfixable.
Seriously you are delusional. 
First, I did not mean it as “take the system” but the effects of those actual traits.
Most of the 1-rank “golden traits” and “dragon traits” - those are the ones I mean, were actually interesting. Ofc, I did not mean the generic 3-rank traits we could buff my relic. I mean stuff like giving Divine storm a small AoE heal, Blood DKs giving the party a short leech buff on using the artifact ability, the stacking crit buff MM hunters had in execute range, the HoT prot pally had on Hand/Light of the protector etc.
Mostly it deteriorated to that because a leveling squish would simply not be enough, the problem with the old system was that there were too many filler options and as a result you’d just choose the most optimal path to the interesting talents, the fun from this system however, dualspeccing to some degree, can be distilled and applied to the current system without fullscale bringing talents back to what they were
Edit:
Undoing a lot of pruning would be just as good, the issue is lack of abilities, as well as Azerite Gear being basically just the crucible 2.0 along with the frustration of getting upgrades that make you lose interesting options failing to make up for the loss of the set bonus and artifact weapon and legion legendaries
I’m not sure what they expect “working” means, if working does not mean “a system that players used succesfully for 7 years”. Like, what else could you possibly want in a system?
I’m not disputing what he wrote? I’m going by exactly the thing that he says and the only thing that i’m disputing is that the current system ended up being what they expected it to become.
The old system also worked for 7 years until they suddenly decided that it didn’t. This system is no different aside for the fact that many players have disliked it since the very beginning.
No, but there is a Q&A that was made a few days ago in where they say that leveling means nothing because you’re not getting anything every time that you level up which directly the result of the current talent system
So sure, they didn’t specifically point to the Talent system but they did ask for our views on it. I am merely pointing it out for them.
Well it’s either that or figure out a better alternative that rewards player every time that they level up that’s both interesting enough and is involved with character progression e.g. no “loot bag” 119 times.
Really? You’re having a hard time following the train of through even though it’s been explained to you two or three different times in long, elaborate forum posts?
Which is what they said 7 years ago. Now we have tried this system for 7 years and the players find it to be fundamentally flawed and unfixable
So what’s next? We can either go back to the first system that players actually enjoyed despite Blizzard feeling that it’s flawed and unfixable (Unfixable meaning they were most likely looking for perfect game balance which is never. going. to. happen)…
…Or we can try a third iteration. So let’s hear it.
Do you have an idea for how a third iteration would work?
Sure that’s fine. Many of them are basically the same thing as Major talents in the old talent trees anyway. We still need the minor talents however to give players a reward for levelup up as well as giving them a sense of working towards something. A sense of progression.
Like i previously stated: Minor Talents are important in their own way. Even if you dislike them; They’re a necessary evil.