You will regret covenants

Community General Discussion
161

It has always existed, mate. That’s what I’m saying - these are subclasses. Obviously you can’t balance everything. We’ve had the WoW classes for years and balance is still a mess. But just like when you chose lock you chose to not be good at all at some things. Tanking? You can’t tank. Healing? Forget it. You chose a pure dps spec, and that severely nerfs your ability in the game. I sincerely don’t understand how people can play a class that doesn’t have a tanking spec.

Now, if we apply that logic of “why can’t I be good at everything” why not give every class a tanking and healing spec? Every class can be made to make sense as tank. Lock can tank through a tanking demon.

I sincerely do not understand this, because we all make these choices all the time, and we like making them. You chose warlock because there’s something about the warlock that you like - it’s not the most powerful class, it’s not the most versatile. There was a time when warlocks couldn’t even get invites to raids. But you made that choice, and why? Because it’s fun.

I fully understand being shoved into a choice you don’t want to make. That’s the only reason I tank - because my choice is between tanking and afking in Orgrimmar. It’s not fun. In fact, giving every class a tank spec would free me up to play my fury.

But when you give every class the ability to do everyithing and be equal… why bother having classes. I’m really okay with Blizzard’s asymmetrical approach to covenants. We’ll see when the beta goes live, they will be testing the entire progression and we’ll see how players are making the choice. In my opinion players will spread around the different covenants and yes, some will troll. Let them troll.

162

Easy the only role i like to play is dps. Also i seincerely dont understand how people can play fury warrior. But thats not the point of the conversation.

Tanking and healing is a role. I dont want my class to necceraly be able to fulfill multiple roles, i want my class to be able to do the same things that another person does with my class, its not difficult to understand. Saying that i want to tank or heal with a warlock will be moving the goal post.

And if we are going to be talking about sub-classes (which i straigh up disagree with that covenants are). We already have 12 classes, 36 specs we do not need 144 “sub-classes”.
Let this sink in for a moment ONE HUNDRED FOURTHY FOUR. I dont need my tool tip to be my life resume. Aliance, Void Elf , Destruction, Venthyr, Warlock.

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163

This is incorect. Conduits are separated into 3 categories Defence, Offence and Utility. You can socket AoE conduits into ST soulbinds if you want to. The way i believe it will work is lets say red is offence so if you put a red conduit into a red socket you get a bonus, if you mismatch them and put a yellow conduit into a red socket you get the conduit effect but you do not get the bonus. Eitherway if im correct or not you will be able to socket AoE conduits into ST focused binds.

164

Do you genuinely believe Blizzard will do that? Unless their philosophy randomly changed, they’ll leave the entire system in place, then patch it up, patch by patch “trying” to fix the problems. Then the next expansion launches and they announce they’re not going down the route they did with covenants again, followed by an applaud by WoW players at Blizzcon.

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165

Tbh i trully believe that they will let us choose the class abilities, but its Blizzard the best corp to corrupt wishes so you can choose the class abilities but soulbinds, conduit , legendaries and covenant abilities are still tied to the covenant choise.

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166

It’s literally pulled from wowhead and the interview they had a couple of hours ago, so unless they transcripted what ion said wrongly they probably changed from how they were when you checked.

167

Oh wow so they made them even more boring if this is true.

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168

ArcheAge which by the way still has the best tab targeting combat, has 220 classes. Each class is a combination of 3 subclasses. And all 220 have unique names. It is actually crazy. And you know what? It works. Each subclass is designed around synergizing with multiple other subclasses and almost every combination is viable. Some are completely overpowered and others are scuffed but the system works in a game with a huge focus on open world pvp. Like you have one subclass that poisons targets and another subclass that comboes strongly with poisoned targets. But you also have a finite amount of skill points, so even if you wanted you can’t learn all skills for all 3 classes. You have to make choices. And it was the best.

169

How are you still so out of touch? How are you still comparing classes and roles to a choice of a covenant? You’ve been given specific examples of why this comparison doesn’t work and why locking player power behind this choice is restrictive and nonsensical in every way. Not only will we feel horrible playing content that our choice wasn’t intended for, but we will also feel horrible playing different specs because the combination just won’t work, it will FEEL terrible to play knowing that something else would have played so much better but for some artificial momentary feeling of a “meaningful” choice, we are not allowed to play what feels good. These choices don’t work in a game like WoW. Certainly not in the state it’s in. It could have probably worked in classic because there wasn’t so much different content and talents were not as impactful as they are now, although there’s fewer choices, they make a much bigger difference and that’s why they can be swapped around. You can’t seriously tell me that you think making such a choice for 2 years ahead is worth it, with the inevitable rebalancing. For 2 years, until the next expansion comes out, most players will be haunted by a choice they didn’t want to make in the first place, and made it clear from the moment this system was announced. That we can change to different covenant will not matter as long as rejoining them back is a pain in the butt.

The thought process behind the choice will probably be something like:

“Thematically I like Venthyr and feel like it would fit my class and personality, but I don’t like the their class ability, tho I kinda like the signature ability, but the Necrolord class ability is amazing, but I don’t want to be a Necrolord, I hate their theme and signature ability. So do I spend 2 years being a Necrolord and hate my choice from an RP perspectice but enjoy the gameplay in SOME parts of the game where the ability works, or choose Venthyr and have a horrible time playing the game because I hate their ability, although it works where the Necrolord doesn’t, but the RP kinda works for me.”

What kind of a choice is this? At this point, it’s not what’s the bets, it’s what sucks the least.

Choosing a class is like buying a car that needs some tuning before it runs well.

Choosing a covenant is like buying a steering wheel for that car that can only turn left or tires that only work wooden floors. Sure the choice matters. That car will be great if you don’t ever need to turn right or if you decide drive around in the local school gym.

A choice like this makes sense in a games like Skyrim, which for some reason Ion compared to WoW. There, it doesn’t matter what you pick. As long as you enjoy the playstyle, everything will work just fine and nothing will make you significantly less powerful than anything else. You just pick what you like and it works. This is not the case here.

In current WoW, this choice makes no sense, period, it will feel terrible as long as you care about the gameplay at least a little bit. Which you probably don’t since you actually think it doesn’t matter which buttons you press.

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170

Then go play HeadAche or whatever its called. This is WoW and its made by Blizzard, in BfA alone we saw people actively refusing to play with shamans, even when they were healers. I can agree that perfect balance is next to imposible but Blizzard cant achiev semi-balance. Look at the 36 specs atm how well do you think that they can jugle around 144.

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171

Do I need to add anything else?

172

My full intent is to just swap covenants if I don’t like the one I am with. My choice isn’t going to be based on RP or anything like that. It’ll be based exclusively on fun - how fun is the covenant’s endgame activity, how fun is the zone I’ll be spending most of my time in. Why would I or anyone make any other choice? You have the top 1% of players who will make their choice based on whatever is best, and the rest won’t care.

There’s of course the game design theory of dominant strategy which more or less implies players cannot be trusted with their own enjoyment of the game because they’ll ruin it. But I don’t care for that, I pay my $15 a month to have fun and to overcome challenges. Me being good at everything would make the game not worth playing.

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I bet that this covenant system will works like this:

1st covenant will be the best for ST fights
2nd for M+ keys
3rd for PvP
4th for BG/RBG

And eventually we will have to grind them all.

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Literally, we all do. But with this system? Pick one.

  • Have fun
  • Overcome challenges

Because with this system, both cannot be true at the same time and it’s really not hard to see.

Pushing M+ will not be fun if your covenant ability is a single target execute. No matter if you push +5, +10, +20…

Raiding will not be fun if your covenant ability is an AoE curse spread, unless most bosses spawn adds every 60 seconds, no matter if you queue LFR or push Hall of Fame.

PvP will not be fun if your covenant ability makes you summon and fight a demon that drops a tiny pool that slightly buffs your damage if you stand in it, on a 2 minute cooldown.

Unless you also want the meaningful choice of only doing one of those for the next two years, you won’t have fun.

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175

By making the covent swapable , i mean the player power from them not the quests/mounts/mogs/etc , you will not lose anything from that, you will not lose your zone activity or anything in the open world. But if they stay as they are now players who actually care about endgame will lose the ability to perform to the fullest of their potential in different types of content. This is why i dont get this whole “we need to keep covenants locked” argument coming from the more casual players, this will literally not affect you it affects the people that play at a more chalenging level. The only semi-coherent reasoning that i have heard from some people has been “because i want better players to get punished”.

EDIT: Ok so i watched the recent interviews and i got where you are getting this “sub-class” BS. Just because Ion says covenants are “sub-clases” doesnt make them that, infact thats the red flag you need to be looking for. Remember how “fun” warfronts and islands were, or how “interactive” the corruptions were before the vendor, rember how we “loved” azerite armor. Yeah im sure that choosing a covenant will be meaningfull and impactfull choise and we wont forget our good firends the kyrians once 10.0 lands.

Also

Like i said just watched the interview and what he said was “You COULD put more AoE in the AoE bind and you COULD put more ST in the ST bind”.

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176

I just watched Ion’s interview and I’m so happy he said “Covenants are like a subclass” lmao

EDIT: I swear Ion has been reading my posts here. Hey, Ion, nice to meet you. He’s exactly saying the things I said. Like comparing covenant choice to class choice, and how you have multiple classes that are just good and you pick whatever you like. Sigh, stinks to be right all the time.

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but theyve or shouldve learedn the lessons multiple times alreayd by now ,an dblizz doesnt learn

178

Ill be sure to remember and quote you on this once SL launches and you cant get into a M+ or Raid group because of the “meaningfull choise” you had to make on your “sub-class”.

179

like imagine adding only one class once every two expansions and then up the number to 144 thanks to sub classes. like cmon, it’s obvious they found this idea of commitment and really like it for some reason so now they don’t want to change their minds, it’s like azerite, or legion legendaries all over again.

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180

Yeah i know it makes no sense. I mean people have been screaming for years that they want Necromancers, Shadowhunters, Thinkers etc. and we have had “No” for an answer but sure lets make 144 things to balance. My conspiracy theory on this is that they know that they cant balance the borrowed power system at this point, so they are making it so diverce that it will be difficult to pinpoint the “right” combination and people wouldnt give a damn if they are optimal or not, but in reality its actually really easy to find said right combo due to sims/guids/theory crafters and the whole thing will blow in their faces anyway. But hey its just a theory, a WoW theory .
(sry, i had to that)

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