- Talanji and the Zandalari : Last Horde race that didn’t become bland and one-dimensional.
- Mag’har orcs : Geya’rah piqued my interest during the allied quest race, but quickly turned into a joke after the final war campaign quest
- The Goblins : They started to get interesting but nah, we traded their leader with a random npc. I mean, an npc with unique voice lines (very subtle difference, I know)
- All the rest except Tauren and the Forsaken : They all got on my nerves this expansion with their whining about muh honor every single time you touched an npc. Even Lor’themar suddenly went from a pragmatic leader who puts the interests of his people above the interests of the Horde to a walmart Tirion Fordring with his newfound sense of righteousness. The Horde, like the Alliance, has officially become a boring and one-dimensional ripoff of Tolkien’s works.
- The Forsaken : Never played one in 12 years of WoW, but it was painful to watch the cool edgelord pvp emotionless race become the emotional equivalent of a hormonal pregnant woman whenever the words Menethil or Lordaeron are uttered. I thought that maybe Blizzard would pretend that “Before the Storm” never happened, but that would mean that they have to admit that they did something wrong which is ofc unacceptable.
- The Tauren : Baine is a cancer in the Horde lore. There are no consequences for his betrayals because reasons, and with reasons I mean that the writers in charge got no clue about concepts such consistency, logic, nuance, politics or anything that might make a story coherent and enjoyable. I’ve had fever dreams that made more sense than anything written between “Before the Storm” and 8.2.5.
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Excuse me what? You know that Gazlowe is around since warcraft 3 and have much more interesting traits than a typical Goblin caricature like Gallywix, no?
Yeah, he is a mechanic and… well, that’s it.
Gazlowe is but a vanilla goblin character that isn’t even the head of his own cartel, and whose only notable trait is that he is friendlier and an oddity amongst the average goblin boss.
Something that is anathema for racial representation.
He is the equivalent of a Goblin that doesn’t behave as a Goblin would.
He allows zero room for a story around him, and never had the traits to facilitate or create any plot around the goblin race beyond the most secondary or supporting ‘IT guys’ archetype. Which he represents to a tee.
And he was pushed to the leading position by crapping and going over several founding values the Goblin race had, while also creating a sort of ‘Green Gnome’ that dooms the race to play second fiddle for the already neutered and bland defanged Horde under other discount characters such as Baine (which also came as a diluted and failed copy for other successful characters such as Cairne).
Putting Gazlowe instead of Gallywix, effectively cripples the goblin race into a backstage role, and benefits nobody except those that want a meek Horde that isn’t conflictive with Alliance values. But I guess this last bit is what’s trendy now with the Horde leadership.
Yeah, I rather have Gallywix, who came to be because he relied on the traditional Goblin values an traits to reach his position, over an oddity that was pushed to the top because he was less morally challenging.
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I think you should take off your hin foil hat for once. Only cuz you like morally questionable characters doesn’t mean that they’re interesting. Gallywix also had never a big rile in warcraft until BtS and BfA so.
I like characters that aren’t one dimensional and shallow.
Gazlowe is one.
Gallywix wasn’t.
I like leaders that are representative of the race values they lead, and that have their traits being those that are founded on the racial values they wield.
Gazlowe is an oddity amongst goblins, never was a leader, and is often used as the bland secondary character for the Horde IT support.
Gallywix became who he is by taking the goblin societal values and making them work in his favour. He is controversial sometimes, and allows stories around him by both supporters and detractors.
He became the boss by being the one that ‘goblined’ the most.
And you should probably look more info regarding Gallywix. Specially his role in Pandaria.
Ps:
Regarding the first bit of your post:
I think you should inform yourself for once, or go back to Night elves.
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Well, that’s your opinion.
Maybe I don’t read everything about this guy, but it don’t change anything that he drives over like a Goblin caricature.
What’s this retarded comment?
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It really is not.
Objectively speaking, and regardless of past appearances, Gallywix currently has a more elaborated and developed background.
His quests, short stories, and roles in novels, trump the token presence Gazlowe has in Wc3 (which made him a tertiary character behind even secondary ones such as Rokhan).
Simply going for whether they have a background or not, puts Gallywix before Gazlowe in terms of story development.
The layering is simply there.
Gallywix has different levels in terms of personality: we have peeks into his soft spots, stories that delve into what he thinks or how he came to be. We know why he is there, what took him there, and we know how he manages things.
We know where does he come from, and we even have more complex reasonings regarding his motives.
Gazlowe has zero background or traits beyond being a friendly mechanic, and an oddity amongst goblins. Someone that never had the ambition or drive beyond being the one that spouts the “I fix stuff!” line reserved for the likes that play second fiddle around guys like Thrall or Baine.
So yeah, in terms of development, he is simply shallow when compared to Gallywix. And the only reason he was promoted to his current role, is because he would be less conflicting than Gallywix in this New Horde.
He had to literally step on the core goblin trait regarding Cartels, for it to be so.
Maybe you should before rudely throwing around else’s opinion or dismissing it by saying he “just likes bad guys”.
Also, Galllywix doesn’t “drive over like a caricature”.
For good or ill, he represents the goblin values the most.
Even if yes, that may mean going about like a caricature (just like Gelbin/Gnome protagonists going all inventive seems like a caricature of their race, or Telamon/Turalyon/Draenei going all Light-rant would seem like a caricature of their race too.).
The appropriate response to this retarded remark:
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Maybe it’s the reason cuz Gallywix us a leader and that leaders mostly get story compared to other characters? Do you think they’re nit capable to give the same treatment to Gazlowe if they want to?
They’re also boring. No doubts, really. I mena did you ever saw someone who said they’re interesting? They’re also mostly just sidekicks.
Do you think I missed your ridiculous salt thread about Baine in Stormwind? No, I know what I’m talking about. Now what have Night Elves exactly to do with my response?
So, your counter is that Gazlowe could be developed in the future to the point of rivalling with Gallywix in terms of development?
Thanks for agreeing with me then, in the fact that as of now, Gazlowe is a bland and shallow character when compared with Gallywix.
Hope we can in the future remove Malfurion and out Naralex in his place. The dude sure can compete with him in terms of development…Blizzard can definetly deck him with the rest of “possible developments” in future content!.
Meanwhile, you’ll excuse me if I rather they had kept the goblin leader the iconic and developed character instead of some bland and unimaginative secondary that is all to willing to play second fiddle.
I did.
And I doubt any player that favours gnomes or Draenei would agree with you that having a leader being representative of the traits they like, would make them be less interesting.
God, I hope not.
That thread was rather illustrative regarding how this sort of forceful story is not welcomed by a chunk of the playerbase its directed towards.
Want me to expand on it by linking the US equivalent too?
Would you like me to facilitate more fuel for you in order to have an argument to grasp on (even if it’s by going for unrelated subjects), or would you rather I linked some Goblin lore to keep on topic?.
Yeah, I’ll repeat:
I think you should inform yourself for once or go back to the stuff you feel like understanding more.
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I wouldn’t call him bland and shallow, though. Like if you didn’t read two stories about him he would look like a joke. It’s not to hard to give so much story to a character, really. Catching up with Gallywix is not a problem at this point. I don’t even think that it’s your point, you just dislike the leader, not that he have less story.
It depends how it is comes over. Characters who mostly show one single trait, are mostly viewed as boring cuz they have nothing else to offer.
Feel free to do so. I know that the US base is more Horde biased, so I don’t wonder if there are some guys who react like you.
Oh, and where is your Night Elf comment now, huh?
By definition, a character whose traits you can get entirely at a simple glance, has zero background, and an undeveloped personality beyond some trodden cliches thrown for him in the form of secondary roles; is a shallow one.
And what makes him bland, is the fact that to the above you add a personality that breeds zero controversy or depth, as is based on the most conciliatory (and OOC for Goblins) Nature.
Gazlowe is shallow. It’s not my opinion. It’s a fact.
Him being bland may have more subjectivity to it, but still is heavily founded on his present traits (or lack of).
Dont presume what I may or may not think.
I clarified already repeatedly what I think: Gazlowe is bland and shallow when compared with Gallywix, and I dislike throwing characters away if the substitute comes under said circumstances.
And another reason I dislike Gazlowe as leader, is because of the blatant move he represents to defang the Horde into a less controversial portrayal for it, in order to facilitate a forceful and inorganic agreement with Alliance aligned values that effectively start by removing the traits that made several Horde races iconic…simply because they don’t mash well with Alliance ones.
Yeah, better have Green Gnome, and Patsy Cow, than people that may challenge Alliance interests.
(And those that don’t fall in line, or do not have a viable substitute to put out, get the Lorthemar or Geyarah treatment, and end up lobotomised).
You mean like Gazlowe?
Because Gallywix isn’t showing a single trait.
And my point was never about them showing a single trait.
I said that they were often shown having the race values exalted to the most notable presence.
Being a gnome extra-inventive or extra intelligent isn’t a single trait. Having a Light zealot isn’t equatable to have them sporting a single traits.
There are layers for both tags.
Don’t know your point here. Are you implying that this forum is more Alliance biased, or that Horde players that comment or denounce issues that affect their game are wrong?
Anyway, no. I don’t feel like linking it.
It bores me going on a tangent of a tangent.
In the bit about “races that you feel like you understand more”.
Unless you are implying that you are about as clueless about Night elves as you apparently are about Gallywix and/or goblins.
Fair enough, but howI already said you can’t really expect this from characters which weren’t really in the foreground in the game
They don’t throw him away if they decided to keep him around. I’m sure we get more of Sylvanas in Shadowlands than in BfA, even if she left the Horde.
Ah yes, it’s not like the alliance players dislike the white knight treatment.
I’m implying that you surely can find same minded people there cause the Horde playerbase on the US forum is obviously bigger. I just don’t think you can convince me of anything by showing their threads. Yes, this forum is more alliance biased.
I know about Night Elves more, they have more story and I also know how Goblins work.
Dude… no. Gallywix is the laziest approach to the character. He is the most stereotypical portrayal of capitalistic richman, only money matters and treats his subjects like trash, only profit matters.
That is his entire summary. Hardly anything complex. Gazlowe is much older character, he helped founding the Orgrimmar, he helped Tauren in Thunderbluff, and he helped with buildng Garrison in WoD.
He is confident, managing and actually pays for insurance for his employees.
I think he deffinietly can have interesting plot. Just because he isn’t morally bankrupt doesn’t make him shallow character.
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That’s the image you get with a cursory glance at his character.
Reading it all in the appropriate context you get:
A child abandoned by his mother (who joined a pirate company that given all clues so far seem to have been the Bloodsail Buccaneers), that grew up with his father in some slum, and was extorted by the locals mobs.
Someone who eventually grew up to be intelligent enough to kill said mobs, become the leader of their organisation, and rise up in the goblin hierarchy by being the one that ‘goblined’ the most and via sheer wits.
Fast forward to more contemporary events, you get a ruthless leader with a facade of capitalist jerk that has everything under control and relishes on the hate people have for him, but that manages to keep a set of values that still translate in him wanting what’s better for the ones he leads.
In all, he is a multi-layered character, with a developed background whose only flaws come from being the one that represents goblin values (the good and the bad ones), most.
And yes, that means he often becomes the most selfish and capitalist jerk there is, or a ruthless crime boss that can extort, kill, or blow those that oppose him.
Because those are the traits that goblins get sold on: Money, crime, and explosives.
Gallywix wasn’t a good character because he was bad. He was good because it was one that represented Goblin mindset the most.
Putting Gazlowe, an oddity with zero background and traits akin to those of some gnome (the other side of the goblin societal coin), will probably amount to the race becoming and embracing their “second fiddle” role as IT guys for the likes of Thrall or Baine to have someone’s head to pat patronisingly.
Old doesn’t mean better, if the lone role Gazlowe ever had was the “I fix stuff” guy.
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Regarding this.
I’m not mentioning the Alliance preferences in all this because the topic doesn’t have to do with it.
But someone has to be blind not to note, that a moderate/peaceful approach that scratches the sort of traits a character like Gallywix brings, is an overall Alliance theme.
By definition, Alliance tend to said extreme.
And yes, that includes having other Alliance incorporations being tweaked to fit in said trope.
The fact is, it’s happening heavily in the Horde. To the point you have the likes of Baine arguing against the inclusion of a race under those that saved two Zandalari Council members in Voldun, while simultaneously arguing for cohesion and peace with the one that killed Rastakhan.
The narrative is bending to a specific branch in this story. And said branch grows in the Alliance tree (even if it’s disliked by other Alliance segments).
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It wasn’t always. Warcraft III and even Classic presented a pretty divided Alliance, with different peoples of very different ideas of right and wrong - not to mention WCi+II, where everything was about war, though we were in the morally enviable position of being the defender. Then we were mushed together into a pseudo-modern good guy trope. Well… I’m certainly not wishing it on you, but from down here I can’t help but feel a certain schadenfreude when I say: Welcome to the club, my red friends.
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And that’s a damn shame. Stupid writing of the top kind, born out of Blizzards inability to have their current story being something other than the pitchest of blacks and the shiniest of whites.
Also, it’s one of the reasons there will always be at least a portion of players rooting for the evil dudes, no matter what Blizzard tries to do in order to make them worse.
Because the alternative is to denounce and discard, many of those values that got people sold on certain races.
Stuff Blizzard is bent to remove, be it by lobotomising their leaders like it happened with Lorthemar or Geyarah, changing them to more moderate or adjusted alternatives like Gazlowe or Baine, or throwing out (after beating them to a pulp with the villain bat), characters to conflictive to adjust like Sylvanas or Gallywix.
And I agree, this whole phenomenon started in the Alliance. Particularly with Night elves.
most of the divide in classic was artificial and engineered by katrina prestor to divide and destroy the nation and it would have worked to if not for marshal windsor ruining her plans
Who cares why it was there? Point is, it was. And it certainly weren’t just the humans who did bad things back then. Indeed, I personally feel the Classic dwarves were the harshest Alliance group of the four in this particlar era.
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i dunno the focus on the dwarves was mostly because stormwind didn’t have a adult leader it had child King Anduin Wrynn and his Regent Lord Bolvar Fordragon as well as katrina prestor (onyxia)(whom everything from the defias to stormwind’s inability to act as well as kidnapping varian wrynn could be traced)