Your toughs on class/spec/talents/skills design: LONG TERM

Community General Discussion
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A. Introduction
If you are in a hurry, just read C. Challenges.

Systems upon systems created every single expansion. Tied to Artifacts(Legion), Azerite, Essences, talents in items (helm, shoulders and chest) the new cloak or even corruptions, AP farming…

Shouldn’t each class, be designed properly on the get go, in the beginning of the expansion, somewhat balanced? This isn’t balanced (assuming this is correct): wowmeta shadowlands dps-rankings

B. Problem
Blizzard is going to spend the next year balancing stuff out, the worse is they gonna modify the classes/specs, multiple times, with other locked systems, the new covenants and up-gradable essences… Which is gonna go to the trash, again, when the next expansion ends!!
I would prefer that the developers would work in actual content instead of re working the same stuff over and over…

C. Challenges

  1. Can something more direct and efficient, be implemented?!
  2. Should a simple and old style character tabs (talents or skill trees) exist? With a lot of choices, meaningful skill trees that allows players to choose different builds for the spec.
  3. If there is something that needs to be tuned or nurfed, do it, but don’t create systems upon systems to balance stuff out that is OUTSIDE the talent tree or class. Make the tuning internally, inside the spec/class/talent?!
  4. OR, everything is fine with the current systems, like the ones we have, where external items (shoulders, helm, chest, back, neck, corruptions) dictate how the spec/class works?
  5. Should every expansion ADD more options of gameplay for each spec, instead of re-inventing the wheel over and over?!
  6. Should item sets and legendaries (like thunderfury) from past expansions be re-used (refarmed or upgradaded with a lootable item) every time a new expansion comes out?
  7. Does a lot of the developers work and effort goes into that expansion alone, and most of the class/spec game designs is re done, every time, every expansion? Do you agree? Do you prefer things this way?

My example
What is your take? give your detailed opinion in how should this work from this expansion forward. The next text is just an example, my view. I would like to hear yours, brainstorm!!

TODO:
Blizzard, all that work done over the years, those different spells used (and discarded when the expansion ends) in every single expansion, put them in the same talent tree (tab). And let the player decide what or how he wants to play around, and empower. Same for items. Tune it, and launch a “super secret preview -_-”.

  • Legendaries are ok, if they create diversity of builds. Ex.: Thunderfury could be upgraded to max level with some farmed materials from end-game.
  • Sets are ok, as long as there is more than one set for each spec, and one is not more than +5% better than the other (average balance).
  • Build a good foundation for the talents and skill trees! Stop building cyclic systems that have an expiration date. Add more, every expansion, to the existing pool of talents and skills. Give diversity instead of remaster or rebuild.

NOT TODO:
Blizzard, stop wasting man power to create stuff that you don’t want to evolve. Be efficient, stop re-inventing the wheel. Your re-work with leveling and professions is in the right direction. The timewalking too, allow us to re-play old content. What about the rest, is it in the roadmap?

  • Don’t create more “locked systems” like azerite, or legion artifacts. They are not reusable, they are grindy, feels like a chore.
  • Don’t add items that drastically change the spec/class like the BFA shoulders, chest and helm. They are not reusable in long term. Make the changes in the talent trees instead…
  • Do not lock essences from specific content. If you want to do something like this they must be ALL obtainable from multiple sources. Like a vendor that accepts a currency gained from WQs, PvP, PvE, etc…
  • I would prefer essences (or what ever system you “MUST” create) to be account wide, and class wide. Avoid re-farm of the same stuff over and over again! Even Story quests are starting to bore me when I have to re-do them in different chars.
  • Do not lock respecs… “THDlock is gonna have 3 to 5 characters so he can compete for world first again”.
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You’re gonna have to choose between old style and meaningful, can’t have both.

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You’re gonna have to choose between old style and meaningful, can’t have both.

I prefer the older systems 100 times more than BFA mix system (Talents of three rows[columns not rows] + back and corruptions + 3 pieces with talents, shoulders, helm and chest) + essences…

Do you really think the 3 row talent system (choose one of 3 from each row) means something, when it is completely dependent on other stuff?

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They’re called columns, so when you said “add them to talents” in your original post, you mean the old talent trees?

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Mop and Wod class design was way better than current. At least, specs were enjoyable in 5.0 and 6.0 which was not 8.0 case.

I’m not against any form of borrowed power, I’m against the fact that specs got shattered and are now looking alike some sort of DIY Ikea building, except you’re getting parts every 3 months instead of getting them at expansion launch.

I hoped SL would get rid off legion/bfa borrowed power phylosophy, it didn’t.

2 Likes
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Yeah bro I so much prefer looking at my stats for 5 seconds and then taking the talent that increases my wanted stat poggg so much meaning in that pogg

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Gannet
They’re called columns, so when you said “add them to talents” in your original post, you mean the old talent trees?

Yes Gannet, mb. Three columns, not three rows. ty for correcting me.

It does not necessarily need to be the “old talent tree”, what i meant was the options that are scattered among all the different systems should be centered in the talent tab, because you have some control over them. And most importantly, that talent tree would grow over time, with way more options, every expansion! Because you keep adding, instead of removing old systems to “remake new systems”.

Example: In Shadowlands you gonna have different systems again:

  • 1 tab with your spec talents (the 3 column talents, which for me is to basic)
  • covenant spells or soulbind abilities and conduits (which you will probably lose when the expansion ends, even if you feel it made part of your spec identity)
  • Unknown things that will appear, almost certainly, like Essences or conduit ramifications or upgrades, don’t know…

Shihiroki
I’m against the fact that specs got shattered and are now looking alike some sort of DIY Ikea building, except you’re getting parts every 3 months instead of getting them at expansion launch.

Agree that they are shattered. But I am not against that every few months there is something new. I just prefer those changes/additions/balances are made around the talent tree, not some other system like “corruptions” + Back that is not even balanced or tested.

Lxser
Yeah bro I so much prefer looking at my stats for 5 seconds and then taking the talent that increases my wanted stat poggg so much meaning in that pogg

What do you prefer? What do you want? Elaborate your ideal class/spec/talent/skill design please.

What I really want is to hear other people opinions…
I am just wondering if the great majority of people are OK with the scattered systems, and throw them into the trash every expansion.
Or if people agree with my philosophy of “adding” value instead of “remaking”.
Or something completely different.

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Yeah but that’s the problem, and you even made this explicit in your title, LONG TERM design. If you only keep adding and adding and adding, eventually it will reach a breaking point, this strategy of only keep adding doesn’t work long term.
This is why they decided removal is also necessary.

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Then why not stop?
If class design is good and enjoyable, why does it need to change all the time?

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I don’t know, stagnation might not be a good long term strategy either.
Also we’re used to getting new toys with each expansion, announcing a major expansion with no new features might put some people off.

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That’s why we have expansions. We change the location of our journey, we change foes, we get new raids and dungeons with new mechanics to work with. New mounts, new achievements, new gear, new systems.

Does EVERYTHING need to change?
If something works fine, does it really need to be overhauled every 2 years, at the risk of becoming worse?

People have been playing on private servers for years, with no new content, no new expansion and no change made to their classes.
I know I’d rather stay on any pre-Legion expansion forever and never get any update than keep enduring the mess that is current class design.

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Well, there’s classic if you prefer it that way.

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That was done through bonus sets and trinkets.

I don’t like those systems because we must do boring content so we can enjoy playing specs. I’m pretty sure there are a lot of good ideas but I feel like Blizzard don’t lilke good ideas.

Which is what they achieved between wotlk and mop : For each spell added, one was removed. If nothing has to be changed, then why fix something that’s not broken ? More especially when it ends up being broken in pieces.

There is an image : Imagine a 3 years old children, who is playing with a toy. He seems to enjoy. Suddenly, you take away said toy from his hands, because…The 2 hours expansion has ended. He does not understand that and then cries.

Same for player : We’re getting tools we’re enjoying and then it’s taken away from us for…reasons…

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Yeah and then you give him new toys, forgot to include this in your analogy.

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What if he does not like the new toys he is given ?

That’s what I felt between legion and BFA : The new systems are not as enjoyable as their legion counterparts (And I disliked legendaries btw)

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Yeah in the eyes of most people BFA underdelivered, but we made lemonade. At least next expansion can’t be worse.

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Wanna bet?

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I don’t mind the system it’s self but the fact it’s to time gated .
For example : azerite traits where cool both pve and pvp cause u can enhance some of your abilities , but a huge downfall is how u obtain the titan residuum .

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Gannet
If you only keep adding and adding and adding, eventually it will reach a breaking point, this strategy of only keep adding doesn’t work long term.
This is why they decided removal is also necessary.

I did not stated only “addition” should be made to a never ending cycle. I said the work should be done AROUND the talents tab (which includes, but not limited to, adding), and not AROUND systems like covenants, azerite, corruptions, artifacts, essences, who are thrown to trash. Most of the work does not pass to the next expansion.

…I just prefer those changes/additions/balances are made around the talent tree, not some other system like “corruptions” + Back that is not even balanced or tested.

Shihiroki
I don’t like those systems because we must do boring content so we can enjoy playing specs. I’m pretty sure there are a lot of good ideas but I feel like Blizzard don’t lilke good ideas.

What if he does not like the new toys he is given ?

I agree with both your posts. That is why I dislike certain changes/additions/removal (what ever needs to be done) outside the talents tab. Because its cyclic systems on top of each other, that “force you” to complete, for that expansion alone!

Soulscar
I don’t mind the system it’s self but the fact it’s to time gated .
For example : azerite traits where cool both pve and pvp cause u can enhance some of your abilities , but a huge downfall is how u obtain the titan residuum .

That is in part, what we are discussing, yes! There are good ideas in each expansion. But because they were developed around a system specific to that expansion, and not the talent tab (which is more permanent and prevails over expansions, usually…), they have to drop it.

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Classic also has terrible class design.
I’ll take any expansion between WOTLK and WOD.

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