Your toughs on class/spec/talents/skills design: LONG TERM

[Mythbringer-hyjal]

Telestrian
…Ie Legacy points can be spent on stuff like talents (allowing you to pick up say two additional talents on the rows we have) or spent to allow boons on whatever the current system is. I’d need to think about it more to come up with a proper solution.

That is more similar to developing a good foundation “one talent tab”, no borrowed powers. And balance only that. As many of us already mentioned.

…My fear is it would make the game incessantly complex though.

I think the intent of the design is what matters. Which is “give more options” to play, a wider range of choices, more freedom, and not lose the gameplay that felt good during an expansion.
Also, that is the point of this forum, is to try to brainstorm something different

Acrono
You misunderstand, when you have multiple systems that impact your gameplay it DOES take more time and is more hard to balance…

Shumensko
No, but one needs to be balanced just for the current expansion, and the other has to be kept balanced in all future expansions. We can’t have multiple talents added each expansion that are balanced, fun, and class related. At best we can get 2 of those traits.

I can relate more to Acrono perspective. The work done by developers is time gated. For some specs, you lose way more than you gain when an expansion starts, gameplay wise. If the effort was around the talents, instead of another “on top” grindy game system, seems more efficient. Leaving the Devs to actually develop more content. I might be wrong…

Athulua
Mists and WOD design appealed to me a lot.
Maybe even WOD, as in MOP the common complaint was that the classes are very homogenized
…
I detest the current design of giving abilities coming from external systems such as golden traits, essences and covenants. I really hate this and I don’t want a third expansion with AP grind. This time it’s capped but it will be a chore you need to go through, even though your character might be long past the point of gearing up.

What system do idealize? A penny for your thoughts. How could you merge all the borrowed power with the talent system you want?

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Mythbringer-hyjal

Can something more direct and efficient, be implemented?!

Probably yes.

@Mythbringer-hyjal

Should a simple and old style character tabs (talents or skill trees) exist? With a lot of choices, meaningful skill trees that allows players to choose different builds for the spec.

Sounds cool to me. A new expansion could add a new branch. Not MORE abilities in total perse (as in: more buttons to press), but more OPTIONS to choose from.

@Mythbringer-hyjal

If there is something that needs to be tuned or nurfed, do it, but don’t create systems upon systems to balance stuff out that is OUTSIDE the talent tree or class. Make the tuning internally, inside the spec/class/talent?!

Well, I think there’s a few exceptions that should apply to that rule: procs and set bonuses.

@Mythbringer-hyjal

OR, everything is fine with the current systems, like the ones we have, where external items (shoulders, helm, chest, back, neck, corruptions) dictate how the spec/class works?

Nothing like corruptions should ever happen again. Imo.

@Mythbringer-hyjal

Should every expansion ADD more options of gameplay for each spec, instead of re-inventing the wheel over and over?!

Add options yes, but make sure you can’t pick everything. We don’t want specs with 40 buttons to push. Give us choices; horizontal progression.

@Mythbringer-hyjal

Should item sets and legendaries (like thunderfury) from past expansions be re-used (refarmed or upgradaded with a lootable item) every time a new expansion comes out?

No.

@Mythbringer-hyjal

Does a lot of the developers work and effort goes into that expansion alone, and most of the class/spec game designs is re done, every time, every expansion?

Probably yes. More so if the system has faults. Those faults need to be fixed. This was clearly shown in Legion and BfA (even though I personally found no fault in Legion’s systems, I can acknowledge that plenty of people did).

[Mythbringer-hyjal]

Tahra
Well, I think there’s a few exceptions that should apply to that rule: procs and set bonuses.

What is the origin of the procs? where do they come from? Legendary and/or Set bonuses?

Add options yes, but make sure you can’t pick everything. We don’t want specs with 40 buttons to push. Give us choices; horizontal progression.

I am safe to assume you agree that those additions/modifications/balances are around the talent tab? and yes, I do think they should bring more options, not more buttons to push. Or who knows, having multiple possibilities/builds where you could choose.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Mythbringer-hyjal

What is the origin of the procs? where do they come from? Legendary and/or Set bonuses?

Set bonuses and just sometimes on items (trinkets and whatnot).

@Mythbringer-hyjal

I am safe to assume you agree that those additions/modifications/balances are around the talent tab? and yes, I do think they should bring more options, not more buttons to push. Or who knows, having multiple possibilities/builds where you could choose.

Oh yeah, that was my general idea.
Give us more choices of active stuff too, but you can’t pick them all.
That way we have more choice, but we don’t get swamped with abilities.

Maybe we could even have way to really double down on some talents by giving us options to improve/enhance those talents. That way you can really get some unique builds within a spec.

[Lìa-aggra-português]

I hate what they did with the talent trees nowadays, in my opinion, the way they were before up until cata. It gave us more flexibility to play with the talents and come up with some hybrid but effective trees. There was the “go-to” tree that every pro would have, but your class didn’t stop working because you were not using some talents, now, I feel that they do, you either use that set up of talents or you cannot heal/do damage… We are too limited.
I don’t mind some ring/trinket sets, or the usual class sets. For some “casual” players. You can still have the legendary itens for the hardcore players that take the time to aquire them. However, they should benefit the class in some way (maybe just stats?) but the gap shouldn’t be so great, that any casual player could not then enjoy the game.

[Jiangna-azuremyst]

Why are legendaries and sets as “external” systems fine for you, but things like azerite armor are not? It’s the very same thing in different packages. They are just as much “not reusable, they are grindy, feels like a chore” like you said about azerite armor and artifact weapons.
For that matter, what really constitutes as “external” in a video game where nothing actually exists anyway. What difference does it make if you get a stat from a talent that can be changed or from a piece of gear that can be changed, except for the presentation? It’s all numbers on the screen in the end.
How would you make legendaries and set items account wide and allow them to respec? You get one account bound legendary and it can be transmuted into any other? There would be a lot of resistance from the community on that.

[Gannet-twisting-nether (Gannet)]

@Lìa-aggra-português

There was the “go-to” tree that every pro would have, but your class didn’t stop working because you were not using some talents, now, I feel that they do, you either use that set up of talents or you cannot heal/do damage… We are too limited.

It’s amazing to see how people are rewriting history.
While there are better and worse talents now, none of them are critical. Which talents don’t allow you do heal or do damage now?
For comparison in WotLK it was possible to actually skip certain talents, like the mana ones for prot pala, that literally broke your spec, you weren’t able to tank.
So no only that you’re trying to distort the past, but it’s also the exact opposite of what you’re claiming.

[Heavenseeker-silvermoon]

Because Armour was the core of power progression since WoW’s inception. Legendaries were not necessary - they were awesome items that you worked hard for, not supplements you mandatorily need to bring your specialization to its proper power level.

[Mythbringer-hyjal]

Strange O_o.
Legendaries and sets are items, that may boost your class/spec talents.
Azerite armor, the neck, even the artifact from legion are “systems” of talents that may boost your class/spec.
Most people consider the latter, as borrowed power. that is why most people dislike them.
They are somewhat different.

I prefer D3 account wide mechanics, than wow… but it is just me…