Zandalari Paladins are disrespectful

Lore Story
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14/11/2018 08:28Posted by Zahir
I mean, humans, the curse of the flesh, all that struck thousands of years ago, before the first troll saw the light of day, but even then there were light-oriented cultures and Titan watchers who used light as power (Tyr !!)


Humans shouldn't be tied to constructs. Because the playable humans were only recently worshipping the Light. Just because Valajar did it doesn't really extend to the Silver Hand heritage.

It's like tieing blood elves to Holy Light because of elune.

Constructs aren't exactly a race too, they're robots. And trolls predate them. Not All titan constructs were using the Light, somehow Mogu didn't have them, the Northrend Vrykul didn't have them, and they also came from titan constructs.

edit: Also food for thought. Titan constructs were also using arcane magic. And yet humans had to be thought by elves about it. And again you didn't see Tol'vir or vrykul mages.
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03/11/2018 00:42Posted by Empedocles
However, the Kul Tirans, blessed by the Light, will not become Paladins.
It is stated IN GAME that kul tirans do not worship the light some worship the sea.
There's more evidence that Gilneans should be paladins than kil tirans.
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14/11/2018 08:19Posted by Beher
..yes, but human shamans and druid... nothing to see here, business as usual...


Kul Tirans are not stormwind humans... I see them thrown in the same box. Thats absurd. Would you label our culture the same as an amazonas tribe? Different believes, structure and so on. Just look at all the elves in game. Same race, different cultures. The culture, not the race, decides which class you can play
Kul Tirans are not "stormwind human". Thats why they have shamans (tidesages) and druids (drust)n and not Paladins (Light is not a central think. Maybe a bit in Drustvar but not long enough). If you really want to discuss a class, its the monk that doesnt make sense.

And for someone claiming D&D Paladins are not WoW Paladins. In 5th edition you actually have this class in that spot that it is not bound by the light and righteousness but the power comes from an oath. So you can even play a Paladin devoted to nature or to bad stuff.
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14/11/2018 08:19Posted by Beher
..yes, but human shamans and druid... nothing to see here, business as usual...


Kul Tirans are not stormwind humans... I see them thrown in the same box. Thats absurd. Would you label our culture the same as an amazonas tribe? Different believes, structure and so on. Just look at all the elves in game. Same race, different cultures. The culture, not the race, decides which class you can play
Kul Tirans are not "stormwind human". Thats why they have shamans (tidesages) and druids (drust)n and not Paladins (Light is not a central think. Maybe a bit in Drustvar but not long enough). If you really want to discuss a class, its the monk that doesnt make sense.

And for someone claiming D&D Paladins are not WoW Paladins. In 5th edition you actually have this class in that spot that it is not bound by the light and righteousness but the power comes from an oath. So you can even play a Paladin devoted to nature or to bad stuff.


Sounds pretty dumb to me, A Paladin is a Righteous Paragon, it's what a Paladin is...one who upholds his vows and the laws of justice.
Bad stuff is Fallen Knight or Black Guard. That's how it was anyway...
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a paladin is a Light empowered warrior

the Light is a cosmic force that comprises half of everything

anyone who uses the Light is using holy Light, its needs no gods just willpower

if your willpower is given to you by belief in a non-existant sentient form of the Light then you can use it

if it is given by real demi-gods its still the same Light, so they can use it

you can use it if you believe that you can, there is no more to it than that

there is no difference between the forms of Light used by paladins - even drawn from the sun it's still THE Light
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Before I will respond to the individual points made, allow me to strengthen my argument.

As I have said, the Paladins were not 'created' because of any other reason except the wish to deliver justice. People - innocents - were dying due to the endless war with the Horde, and they needed strong and capable fighters with the greatest honour to protect the weak and deliver justice to the world again, a world shattered by war and conflict. The Paladins were NOT chosen simply because they were good fighters and would even be better if they fought with the Light. They were chosen because they had an exceptional personality. They were virtuous, honorable, and upheld the tenets of the Holy Light. They did not see the Light initially as a weapon, but as the goal itself -- the Light should not be used for any other goal except upholding its principles.

Thus, the first Paladins were born. Each of them were presented with a Libram: a Libram of Justice, Retribution, Compassion, Holiness and Protection. These represented the core principles a Paladin ought to uphold. And they did, they did not only fight bravely, but they fought with honour.

The Zandalari Trolls, although they have their own talents and strengths, do not represent what a Paladin ought to represent. Their 'Paladins' do not even interest themselves in the Light, for they see the Light merely as a power to achieve their goals. Neither do they worship the Light (they worship their Loa), and they do not even have FAITH in it! What is a Paladin without faith???? It is nothing but a SHELL of what a Paladin truly is! They are what they are - Prelates, and that is the only thing they should be called.

There are a few races who truly understand what it means to be a Paladin. Humans. Dwarves. Draenei. But also the Blood Elves, who were put on the right path by the selfless Prophet Velen, who cleansed the Sunwell. To put it in the words of Lady Liadrin, after the Sunwell was restored:

"Blessed ancestors! I feel it... so much love... so much grace... there are... no words... impossible to describe..."

THIS is when the Blood Elf realised what it means to be a Paladin. To represent all that is good on Azeroth. And while the Blood Elves are still misguided, serving the Banshee Queen who prefers the Void over the Light, they at least know what being a Paladin means.

13/11/2018 00:02Posted by Zakkaru
That is the entire purpose why Prelates are unique case -I don't want it to be imposed on Zandalari, their Loa worship is more interesting and diverse.

Neither do I want them to be called Paladins. They can be Prelates, but are unworthy of being Paladins.

14/11/2018 04:34Posted by Isilnir
You only want them to be paladins, so that you can racechange into them, not because of story reasons.

No.

14/11/2018 07:29Posted by Jakali
The Holy alliance forgot that The Chad Zandalari Prelate has been worshiping the light 10 000 years

They were worshipping Loa's, get your lore straight for the Light's sake.

14/11/2018 07:29Posted by Jakali
they're not paladins, they're prelates.

Do I need to say more?

14/11/2018 13:31Posted by Koradan
It is stated IN GAME that kul tirans do not worship the light some worship the sea.

By all means, provide me with a source.

14/11/2018 17:09Posted by Xiaopaw
And for someone claiming D&D Paladins are not WoW Paladins. In 5th edition you actually have this class in that spot that it is not bound by the light and righteousness but the power comes from an oath. So you can even play a Paladin devoted to nature or to bad stuff.

Clearly a 'Paladin' being devoted to nature is a Druid... and a 'Paladin' devoted to the Elements is a Shaman...

14/11/2018 18:50Posted by Garrou
A Paladin is a Righteous Paragon, it's what a Paladin is...one who upholds his vows and the laws of justice.

Yes, thank you.
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14/11/2018 21:14Posted by Empedocles
Yes, thank you.


And Prelates aren't righteous Paragons? They're representing virtues that are dear to Zandalari- they're blessed by the Loa and are the strongest of warriors. They're the vessel to carry Loa's will, to defend the temples, royal family protect the empire from invaders, slaying the infidels (blood trolls) and purging the undead (because they upset Bwonsamdi).
Zandalari don't tolerate slavery - which is not something every human nation could tell about themselves. Zandalari are following laws and bringing justice too. They opposed Hakkar and supported Frostmane tribe who's children were murdered by Ironforge dwarves.

They have different belief system but they have more in common with regular paladin trope than you're giving them credit.
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The joke here is that the Zandalari were the first to have paladins in the Lore. They were the first people on Azeroth to field holy warriors. Prelates were a thing before the humans even existed.

HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE COPYCAT!?
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14/11/2018 21:14Posted by Empedocles
THIS is when the Blood Elf realised what it means to be a Paladin. To represent all that is good on Azeroth.


To be fair Blood Elves Blood Knights now pray to the Sunwell for a blessing lore-wise, not to the Light itself, they pray the Sunwell, and the Sunwell is also made of arcane magic actually...so they are still different from the Human paladins despite their redemption and similarities. The faith is not a pillar of their beliefs in the Sin'dorei case. Furthermore, they are only encouraged (but not forced) to use and cast the Light (still as a tool as a school of magic like the others) through the Sunwell, which means potentially a morally grey Blood Knight is free to try to force the Light to do his/her own bidding like in the old times even nowadays.

So for every race (Trolls included) the meaning of the class "Paladin" is actually very variegated and different, not everything is about the Silver Hand. Also the Light itself is not an inherently good force as per Illidan and Yrel's most recent lore.

Just...let it go man.
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14/11/2018 18:50Posted by Garrou
Sounds pretty dumb to me, A Paladin is a Righteous Paragon, it's what a Paladin is...one who upholds his vows and the laws of justice.
Bad stuff is Fallen Knight or Black Guard. That's how it was anyway...


Clearly a 'Paladin' being devoted to nature is a Druid... and a 'Paladin' devoted to the Elements is a Shaman...


Paladins in 5e are not bound to religion anymore. (They can but its not a must). They are now chmapions of a choosen god and guardians of their choosen Oath. There is the standard Paladin cookie oathm about protection, light and rightousness but there are others like the "Oath of the Acients". A champion that guards and protects holy nature places and is often devoted to a nature god or he Oath of the Crown. Paladins who follow this path are sworn to the ideals of civilization, serving society and the just laws that hold the society together. Their tenets are usually set by the sovereign they serve but generally include: Law, Loyalty, Courage and Responsibility.They are pretty much lawful neutral.

different between them and a druid or shaman (which doesnt exist in dnd 5e) ist that they are champions and bound to an oath. They are warrior, guardians and defenders of their oath and not just simple spellcasters. So much for in punto dnd. Its all about devotions to their cause.

And Paladin just means transalted "servant of a temple/palast"

Topic: We have had enough examples in the past of loreclasses being squished in existing classes for mechanical reasons.

Sunwalker for example are just druids that worship the sun and normaly lorewise should have an own druid spec for it. Too much work -> squished as paladin
Tidesages should be thier own classes because its a waterbased mix of restoshaman and frostmage -> to much work, just give them the whole class.
Prelates are a mix aswell but you cant have a own class for every little lore thing. So squish them in an existing one that fits the most. Its the paladin.
They dont care fpr the holy light, they are powered by their loas, so their mechanically casted light spells are in truth lorewise loa given powers that can have different color, shape and purpose. Mechanically they of course will do in legion the paladin hall stuff, but lorewise they didnt and they have nothing in common with the light religion paladins, like the sunwalkers dont.
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I love how this whole arguement can be dismantled by mentioning Draenei
The light is a universal force, like, literally, it was the only thing that existed until the absence of light (the void) was a thing and when that absence of light and light clashed the literal rest of the universe came into being, it is not only available to x or y race, hell, it’s not even a deity to worship. The naaru might be, but they’re manifestations of light in the same way that animals are manifestations of flesh

The light can be summoned purely on willpower, that is the canon, judging from that zandalari paladins are within the realm of posability.

I would sooner say that the reason why people started worshipping it was because, unlike the void, it’s visions were more coherrent and tended to align more with what the person who was experiencing the visions saw as righteous, with that, azerothians projected a sentient benevolent creature onto that light and probably for good reason, but that doesn’t make it a sentient being, it’s still just a force of the universe

Also;

In DnD sure, your alignment is even locked to lawful good there, but this isn’t dnd.

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EDIT I meant to post this with Empedocles.

As you can see from the previous replies of mine that you haven’t read, you see that I respect the Draenei and the way they use their Light. The Zandalari Paladins are a metaphysical middle finger specifically for the pious Human races because the Kul Tirans won’t be able to play as a Paladin…

They already ‘exist’ as Zandalari Prelates and they summon the Light through the Loa.

I already gave great arguments for why Paladins in WoW are also like that in my previous posts. To save you some time:

Or

The rest of your arguments are irrelevant. Also, if anyone wishes to respond to my points, feel free to do so but at least read the rest of the replies so I do not have to repeat myself.

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You are correct, I did not read the rest, the initial post baited me into an immediate reply.

I’ll say one thing tho and this is mostly my opinion;

Zandalari getting paladins and Kul’Tirans not getting paladins isn’t a middle finger in the face of Kul’Tirans.

Kul’Tirans not getting paladins is a middle finger in the face of Kul’Tirans

It’s the specific aspect of the first post that baited me into the first reply because it makes a post feel like “If I can’t get it they shouldn’t be able to get it either”, even if that wasn’t your intended message.

I’m not sure about the Kul’Tirans having paladins and how their lore is on that so wether them not being paladins is lorelol or not I don’t know, but considering humans were the original paladin race on Azeroth it feels weird that they’re not able to make them atleast

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If I may enter the debate, I have a few observations. We know that the Light is a cosmic force.

The way the paladins draw on the Light is just one of the possible ways to do so, so these Zandalari can also gain access through their worship of the appropriate Loa.

Chronicles state that Mu’ru was capable of granting his power to the Blood Knights (they didn’t siphon them, he gave them), and seeing that the Blood Knights were not a particularly moral order at the time, one is forced to conclude that “belief in one’s own justice” is a human/draenei/blood elven notion.

The tauren paladins draw power from the sun, and just like them, the Zandalari draw power from their Loa. No morals are required. Further more, Zandalari paladins, simply are not paladins.

They can be defined as paladins if you define paladins as holy warriors, because you can even call druids holy warriors.

But if you define a paladin as the human/draenic concept of an offensive, libram-carrying light wielder, they simply do not fit the bill, and they do not have to. I consider them being paladins a game mechanic, they are their own completely separate thing. Similar in some aspects, yet different.

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You’re wrong in claiming that “holy warriors” could be even applied to druids. I n WoW we have already established definitions.

So druids had to have access to emerald dream in order to transform and commune with nature. Without this they’re not druids.

Paladins/hole warriors are the representatives of their religion, they draw power from their faith and the power they vield has to be from light.

In this regard Zandalari paladins fit much more than elves who were siphoning it like battery. They’re not doing it because of their faith, blood elves aren’t even religious I can’t remeber even seeing one church or temple they created.

Zandalari live in temple-city. They developed their own order tgat fills all the criteria and their chosen Loa grant them light powers.

The only difference between human pala and Zandaladin is their religion and their dressing code.

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I am not using WOW definitions, I am using an in-general definitions. The night elves consider nature sacred, so according to that definition, they are holy warriors.

It once again depends how you define a paladin or a holy warrior.

They are doing it because of their faith, but their faith is not in the Cosmic Force which is the Light, but in their Loa.

Blood elves are, and were religious. Liadrin is an ex-priestess, you can check her development and how paladins work in the Chronicles. Their faith in the light is deep.

I do not disagree with you, I only think that you confused my out-of-game definitions with ingame stuff. We are on the same wave-length mostly, I was just stressing certain differences in belief and attitude.

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People need to stop thinking of classes so simply. A paladin is just a classification of a load of sub classes. For example a Druid, contains Druids of the claw, fang , pack, Dinomancers and Drust. All are different kinds of druid. its the same with Paladins. We have the Standard paladin but also Blood knights, sun walkers, prelates and Vindicators. Blizzard would have an awful time balancing 5 different kinds of paladin so they group up the 5 - 6 different sub classes into one main class.

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Gimme da holy light mon!

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In fairness we have ill defined definitions. The Source ultimately may be the same, but a Paladin does not believe the same as a Vindicator, as a Sunwalker, as a Prelate.

Ermm, the actual Priest units during the WC games were not human, but Elves from Quel’thalas. The State religion of Quel’thalas was, and again is, that of The Light. Liadrin was a Priestess of the Light. Individuals may not be, but the state as a whole believes in the Light.

I’d argue ‘their route at arriving at the same destination’ as another difference but ultimately, yes, Zandalari Prelates make complete sense.

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But I think we have all to agree that even after Zaladins the Blood Elfes will still look better :smirk:

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