Yeah, my attitude is so questionable.
I played badly, so I lost. What a terrible attitude to have…
Should have bubbled him, kept him alive. That aggressive rein could have won you the game if you played it right.
hmmm, well, if you’re at the level where you think I would need to PROVE whether I’m polite or not, then I think you watched one too many courtroom cases my friend, and you’re not a good judge of character at all. Based on what I’ve said ALL this time, in all my highly detailed posts, I’m sure most would see that I’m being polite, respectful and clear, even if I’ve got a very different viewpoint of things than you do. The fact that I’m TELLING you that I am being polite in game, should honestly be enough, as it comes from the source(namely me). My etiquette, respectful writing(even though we are in disagreement) and the patience of having to repeat myself over and over again, should back up my claims, but if you really don’t think this is good enough, then you probably see things in the world in a very binary way. Everything would be “yes or no”, “0 or 1”, “good or bad” etc etc. No nuances or space between, like “maybe”, “0.5”. “could be better, could be worse”. Based on everything I’ve said so far, you should at the very least be able to tell than I’m being honest, transparent, and very open. You also know I’ve got no ego, pride, and feel no shame. So why would I have to prove to you? you think I could be lying? ALL the stuff I’m writing, and you would think there is a possibility I’m lying? why? what would be the point? what would I gain from that?
You could, and whenever you play bad yourself, you can apologize to them aswell. People are usually very forgiving, and the morale stays high. As I’ve said before. Your choice though.
Nah I didn’t criticise them. That would of been a dumb and toxic thing to do.
Would be a bit rich of me to say anything when I played badly.
Nothing dumb and toxic about this as long as you acknowledge and apologize for your own shortcomings aswell.
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And that is where you are wrong.
Telling someone they played badly is toxic behaviour.
Just because you try spin it with some limp apology doesn’t make it acceptable.
I played badly, ill work on that.
What makes you think so?
I wonder how you imagine I’m telling them, because I am being constructive, I’m not bashing them. There is a difference.
Limp apology? How am I using a limp apology in your mind? And what am I doing that is unacceptable? You are not saying what I’m doing wrong, unless you believe that ALL criticism is inherently bad, which is INCREDIBLY wrong.
Good that you take responsibility, atleast.
It’s irrelevant. Telling someone they were bad is toxic.
if you also admit you were bad, excellent… you were still toxic before that.
But as I’ve said, you will post rationalise your behavior and spin it to make sure you think your above them.
Imagine punching someone in the face and then saying “but it’s OK, I also punched myself”…
It’s not irrelevant. You are misunderstanding what I’m saying then. I’m not saying TO them that they are bad, I’m criticizing their choice of action, which is not bad or toxic in any way. And if you think it is, you are factually incorrect.
I didn’t admit to being bad. I said I would apologize whenever I make bad decisions. That doesn’t mean I’m “overall bad”. It means it CAN happen on rare occasions. How you misunderstood that is completely disingenuous and ridiculous.
You don’t understand clear, concise english if that’s what you think. There is no spin, and there is nothing pointing to me thinking I’m above them for simply pointing out something they might have overlooked or misjudged. The fact that you believe so makes it clear you are not old enough to approach this topic in an adult sense.
This just proves that my points are being misunderstood by you, and just whooshes over your head. Can’t help you there, buddy.
I am perfectly understanding. Criticising someone is just how you are spinning it. Essentially you are telling someone they didn’t do their job right.
And that is toxic behaviour.
But as I have said many times, you will try to post rationalise and justify your actions.
Blizzard are pretty clear, you tell someone they did a bad job, that person has every right to report. You get report enough for it you will get actioned.
So, why bother. Why not just keep it to yourself and just get on with the game.
You are no better than your team, it is bordering on hypocritical to pin point other peoples errors. And just because you “apologise” (you aren’t sorry) for a mistake you made doesn’t make it right (what about the 10 other mistakes you made in the game that you haven’t realised…).
Toxic behaviour in video games will never be removed. But why be part of the problem. Just encourage your team, never enough praise for good plays.
You are factually wrong. How you can possibly see it like this shows your lack of maturity.
They have been pretty clear when it comes to the rules of toxicity, but strangely enough, constructive feedback and criticism is not part of this, unless you twist my words into meaning something else. They can ofcourse report me if they feel like it, but seeing as I’m not breaking any rules, it will not lead to any actions anyways.
I’ve told you why. To increase my odds of victory by telling them to not make the same mistake again. Simple.
You are basing this statements on your own narrative, and not based on what I’ve explained about myself. Why you would think I’m not sorry, and simply saying it for brownie points is completely wrong, and you ahve no reason to think I’m not being sincere when I apologize for my mistakes. Same goes with your statement of me making 10 other mistakes, there is no reason to think that my other mistakes are grave in their errors. And only the grave errors are worth pointing out. If we were to point out EVERY little thing, the game would lead nowhere. I’m taking about mistakes that can define a victory or defeat. Like using 2 ults on 2 people, when we already killed 4. These ults would be wasted, and they clearly didn’t see in the killfeed that we had already won that fight. Stuff like this, is worth pointing out, in order to make people less likely to press their Q out of habit, when they should save it for next fight. It’s pure and simple. If I make a severe mistake on a similar level of game-changing, then yes, I will apologize, and tell them that it was not my intent. And ofcourse I mean this, because I’ve essentially ruined for myself aswell, not just them. You are twisting my words to fit your narrative, when all you really need to do is read what I’m saying. Like I’ve told you a million times already, there is NO hidden message or agenda in my posts. But I can tell that you clearly have one, as you can twist my words into saying something COMPLETELY different than what I’m actually saying. Not a very mature choice in a debate tbh.
And I am ofcourse aware of this. Not saying anything different.
I’m not, but with your own narrative twisting my words, I can understand that you see it that way. Even though you are pulling info out of nothing, and try to make what I’m saying fit your beliefs and narrative, even if my message is completely changed in the process.
And like I’ve said, I do both. I criticize for bad, and I praise when they do good. I’ve already made that very clear, if only you read what I’ve been saying.
“to increase your odds of victory”
Never provided data to show if this course of action has actually been successful.
Criticising. However helpful you think you are being (I doubt the data would back this up, but I am happy if you can prove me wrong), is being part of the problem.
You are just telling random people you don’t know they’ve done a bad job. They know when they’ve made a mistake, they don’t need some know it all telling them. We could go down the route of not knowing someones mental health and so on and your criticism might cause more issues that you know.
So in short… Why bother… Move forward, come up with a new plan and go again.
Example - the Zen misuses ult and “wastes” it. Happens, they made a snap decision and in hindsight holding it would have been better.
How does criticising help… they know holding would have been better.
Why not just set up a plan for the next fight, instead of focusing of the lost one.
The Overwatch community in game is an interesting cross section of people. And from what I have witnessed, most don’t want to hear some T500 hindsight player telling them everything they should have done. Even more so in quick play where you spend most of your time.
So just don’t do it. It isn’t that hard.
Provide data? It’s completely unneccessary, as you don’t really understand what I’m saying. Which is clearly shown in the next few sentences you write. Criticism is a good thing, as long as the delivery of it is being respectful and factual. But it seems like you believe that I’m being derogatory, and disrespectful, which I’m CLEARLY not being. If you believe I am, then you are seeing criticism as inherently a bad thing. And this is just not true. I can’t believe how you are missing this point.
Why should I provide any data for this? I can see it working in-game. Some people accept it, agree to it, and they don’t make the same mistakes again. And I’ll move on, and everyone’s mood is lightened up after the mistake has been addressed and apologized for, more often than not, lightening up the mood, and making morale actually go up after a mistake has been made. SOME people can’t handle criticism, and turns on their colorful language, which I simply ignore, and just report them for abusive language when the match is over.
Yes, so they hopefully will be a bit more mindful for the rest of the game, and keep their focus up, and make less mistakes. Everyone benefits, even them.
But in case they don’t realize it, I’ll still point it out, and make sure they know for future teamfights. I’m not a know-it-all for pointing out something obvious, and if it’s not obvious for them, then even more reason to point it out.
I have a fair amount of mental health issues myself, but this doesn’t really matter. If you can’t handle the heat, then stay out of the kitchen. If they can’t handle criticism, then don’t go on the internet. It’s very simple. I’m not going to treat EVERYONE as if they have a mental health problem, because some might. If these mental health problems are that damaging for them, then they shouldn’t go online on the internet where they can get more issues. It’s really simple. Your argument holds no actual weight.
I’ve told you why to bother… So the chance of them doing this once more in the game will be reduced. Even if it’s only 1% less chance they do it, I would still say it’s worth bringing it up. Nothing wrong in that. If it’s annoying, then I don’t care. I’d prefer having an annoying teammate who wants to check me all game, rather than one that thinks it’s fine that I do mistakes constantly.
And stuff like this happens all the time. I’m not saying I would tear him to shreds for it, but unless I hear him saying something like “oops, that was bad of me” or something to the similar effect of this, I would bring it up. And usually, I would get an answer similar to “yeaaaa, I messed up a bit there xD”, and to this, I would simply say: “it’s fine man:) no worries, we can still win”.
However, if he doesn’t address it, and I bring it up, and he says he didn’t make a mistake, then I would tell him that he really did, and he wasted the ult. If he gets aggressive and feel like his pride has been hurt from this, resulting in him using colorful language, then I’ll just say: “yea, sure dude” and just report him after the match. I’m being very respectful about how I address them with my criticism.
That’s for sure.
Well, I’m never going to be top500, so it doesn’t really relate to me, but it honestly depends on HOW the deliver the messages. I never said I only criticize in hindsight either. I Criticize hindsight, I do shotcalling(unless someone else wants to), and I praise people when they do stuff great. How this is wrong in your mind, I don’t understand.
I don’t CARE about other’s pride and ego. It’s USELESS to me. And it certainly don’t help me win a game to acknowledge their feeble ego’s and pride. So, I will do what I see as giving me the most chance of winning, and that includes criticizing hindsight. Most people I do it to doesn’t take it bad at all, only those who have their precious ego shattered, and I don’t care how they feel. If I’m annoying for those people, then good. They need it most of all.
Can you prove criticism is a good thing? And worth it overall.
Totally understand that some might take it on board and thank you.
But for every 1 person like that there are countless more that will find it anything from mildly irritating to down taking the p!ss.
Yeah, you missed my T500 “joke”. The player who is pointing out everyones mistakes is the best player in the world after the event.
And there it is… You don’t care about others “pride and ego”. Just because you are not effected by it, and neither am I… Doesn’t mean others are the same.
You don’t know everyone, so just cut it out and let people enjoy their games.
But you sum it up well at the end. You don’t care if you are annoying people.
You coming from a good place, in theory. But you are just being a toxic player. End of.
As long as it is constructive, then absolutely it’s a good thing. It’s pretty well known. I could send you a ton of links here that would point it out for you, but as it’s a fairly known thing, I suggest you just google whether it’s good or bad. You will quickly see all the evidence for this being a good thing.
Again, depends on how you deliver the criticism, and as long as I do it in a constructive and respective and suggestive way, then almost nobody is reacting in a negative way, and actually, most people take it on board, and it lightens the mood for the entire team for the rest of the game. If people find it irritating, then I’m completely fine with that. They can be irritated on me if it makes them feel better, I’m completely fine with that. My skin is not so thin that this reduces my quality of sleep at night.
I know, and I understood that, but like I said, it doesn’t apply to me anyways, because I’m not a know-it-all or the best player in the world for pointing out obvious things (keep in mind that even if it’s obvious, the mistake was still made, so better to clarify if they actually know about this obvious thing, or make it clear for them if they don’t).
Ofcourse I don’t, I’ve been saying this the whole time… It’s a useless attribute. If their ego and pride is THAT fickle, then all the more reason for them to understand that nobody cares about this, except themselves. I don’t play FOR them, I play for myself. And when there is a team I need to work with, I will do what is best for the entire team, as this will also benefit me and my goal. Everybody wins, except the ego and pride(which never should win anyways).
How is this related to what I’m saying at all? If you are suggesting here that I should let someone with a ton of useless pride and ego decide for themselves that this is important, when it can affect me and my game, then absolutely not. I will not let someone with a fragile ego and pride dictate how my game goes. Unless they keep their ego and pride out of it. They can shotcall and lead as much as they want, as long as they don’t let the ego and pride “control the wheels”.
If by annoy people, you mean saying things that might be obvious to the person I said it to, then yes. I’m not TRYING to annoy anyone, I’m not “being annoying” on purpose, if that’s what you mean. All I’m doing, is giving constructive criticism and feedback, in order to get an understanding of where they stand as a teammate. Thus getting a better picture of how likely we are to win.
Again, there is nothing toxic about pointing out flaws. If you think it is, then that means you think criticism as a whole is bad in all situations. Regardless if it’s good criticism or bad. And that is simply wrong, as you can easily see if you just google whether it’s good or bad. It’s pretty well known that constructive criticism is considered a good thing, as it shows us how to become better. For one so interested in improving himself, I’m baffled that you don’t agree with me on this. That’s literally what constructive criticism IS. Look it up.
I am fully aware of what constructive criticism is and it benefits when applied well.
But it relies on you having some based awareness of the person situation of each person… Which, unless you know everyone playing the game, that is very unlikely.
So you cannot guarantee it will be taken the way you think you intend. As I said… for every 1 person like that there are countless more that will find it anything from mildly irritating to down taking the p!ss. There will even be the odd few that find it upsetting. All depending on their personal circumstances.
So, just don’t.
The few pro’s you are hoping to achieve are massively outweighed by the negative consequences.
Not that you will change, you have said you don’t care about other players.
There is no need for me to know anything personally about a person in order to give constructive criticism, that’s not correct at all. I can judge a specific thing the person is doing, and give feedback on this specific thing, without knowing ANYTHING else about them. It’s STILL constructive criticism.
Ofcourse I can’t guarantee how they will take it. But they should just take it as it is, constructive… criticism… If this offends them, then that’s on THEM, not on me. It’s not like I had any ill intent just because I criticize something they do. And if they believe I do, then I was either saying it in a bad way, which i turn would reduce the level of “constructive” feedback I’ve given them. OR, they can’t handle criticism, which really isn’t MY fault or problem. If they want to ignore it, they are free to do so. But saying I SHOULDN’T give constructive criticism because they MIGHT take it the wrong way, would be incredibly unproductive.
What negative consequences? I’ve already said I don’t care if they see me as annoying. I can live with that. It doesn’t hurt me that people think I’m being annoying, but based on how I deliver my criticism, this rarely happens. And more often than not, actually ends up raising morale instead. The only “negative” consequences I can think of in this situation, would be that some players feel like their ego or pride has been hurt. And this honestly doesn’t bother me one bit. Ego and pride are useless attributes anyways, and has no place in a team-game. It’s a meaningless, useless and pointless thing to bring to a team. That’s why I don’t care if they feel like their ego or pride has been hurt.
I care about them as much as one does with their random teams. They are not important to me in a personal sense, but I naturally wish them all well, and hope they will have a fun and good life. But I don’t know them as people, nor do I care to. All I want is a team that shares the same goal of doing our best to win, and all be on the same page to make our synergy as a team work in our favor. This does NOT mean I’m willing to step on others in order to elevate myself, or anything to this effect. I care about them in a professional setting, not a personal one.
If some of them have a personal issue where they feel like they need to keep their ego and pride intact, and think this comes BEFORE the team, then I have absolutely no problem with completely shattering these useless attributes in order to win a game. That’s where I stand on this topic.
If you disagree with this, then please tell me why I should let people think that their ego and pride should be of importance to me and the other teammates, and what exactly it brings to us as a team. Because as far as I see it, there is no use for it, and nothing from this that inherently contributes to our chances of winning.
“they are not important to me in a personal sense”.
Nice.
And you do need to know a based level for constructive criticism to work as a whole.
Just like in football… a manager will need to know who responses best to being shouted at, and who responds best to an arm round the shoulder. If he doesn’t know that and just picks one blanket approach he is just going to alienate most of the dressing room.
Same in game… Not everyone is going to appreciate your “criticism”. So while you might help the odd few. Most will be either uninterested, annoyed or possible upset by your “criticism”.
So no matter how you dress it, the chances our it will not be having a net positive effect on your gaming experience.
So, why not just not do it. Don’t be the toxic player.
Sounds like, certain in-game, you have zero compassion. And that explains a lot. I would guess that actually your attitude is actually what is costing you, but you are trying to deflect it on to other things to suit your narrative.
Again. Provide proof that you are having a net positive impact on your, and other gaming experience and I will retract my statement with a full apology.
But it is simple, in-game you are a toxic player.
Using “winning” as your reason for your behaviour is quite frankly pathetic.
Don’t come back with more “i don’t care about players” blah blah blah.
Only reply with hard evidence that you are improving the players around you with how you act. Otherwise you are just proving my point.
Zero compassion, toxic player.
Lmao you’re clueless. You can’t expect me to have my ability ready 24/7. No Rein should charge into a team of 6 players, and I weren’t even playing Zarya. But ofcourse it’s always MY fault and no-one elses. Give your head a wobble.
Bit hypocritical of you to say since you think you are above everyone else on the forums.
You don’t even know what the word means. You think constructive criticism is trolling, this shows how clueless you are on the subject.
This conversation is going nowhere. You’re in denial and you think you know it all. It’s obvious you’re just trolling the forums because you’re bored. /thread
What of it? I don’t know them in real life, and I never will, so why should I care for them on a personal level? I care for them as “fellow human beings”, and treat them with respect. But I don’t see why I would care for them on a personal level, and how they feel in real life. I’m not their friend, and I will never know them on a personal level anyways, so yes, it is nice. It seemed like you were being sarcastic, but if that’s the case, what is wrong with me seeing them in this way?
Factually incorrect.
This is a completely different scenario, and would only be relevant if the team I have in ranked is a consistent group of the same people. In a situation where you get queued up along with 5 randoms you never played with before, and most of them you probably won’t be seeing again, your point wouldn’t make sense whatsoever.
And it’s fine if not everyone is going to take my criticism to heart. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be saying it anyways. And again, it really really depends on HOW you give them the criticism. Like tone of voice, choice of words, how nitpicky you choose to be, etc etc. And ALMOST nobody I ever criticized took offence. If they did, then atleast they kept it to themselves. The very very few that actually snapped back at me, did so by telling me to “shut the f*** up, re***d!” and ended up getting reported by me and the rest of my team for toxic behavior. As they all understood I was doing what I considered to be “in the best interest for the team”. Which is what I do. Just because a dude like this can’t handle me saying it, doesn’t mean I shouldn’t say it, because some people like him can’t handle having their ego challenged. Like I said, ego and pride is a pointless and valueless thing for the team, so too bad for him, really. Let him be upset. The rest of us can be mature instead.
I beg the differ. I think you have a very unflattering image of what I’m ACTUALLY like when I give criticism. Like I’ve stated multiple times, criticism is not necessarily bad. Just because some people give criticism in a very toxic way, doesn’t mean I also do so. And I’ve made it abundantly clear that my criticism is very respectful and factual, not berating or toxic in any way. Unless you have proof of me doing otherwise, you have no reason to doubt that I’m telling the truth, as I’ve been very consistent in my views and examples given of what I would actually say.
Already told you. For the increased chance of winning the game. There is nothing I’m doing that is toxic, unless you actually think ALL criticism is toxic and bad. Which would be an incorrect assessment of what criticism is. I’m simply NOT toxic. No matter what you believe.
What are you basing this on? I’ve got tons of compassion for my family and friends. If someone in-game told me they had a rough day in real life, I’d just say: “I’m sorry to hear that man, hope you’ll feel better soon”, he’d say: “Thanks dude, I hope so aswell” and we would be done. I have compassion to him on a level as “fellow human beings”, but not as I would with family or friends, who are actually important people to me, and that I care and love for. I don’t love this random person I will spend time with for up to 10-20 mins. And believing I should would just be ridiculous.
What does this even mean? deflect what exactly? And what narrative? did you misread one of your posts as one of mine or something? I’m being as transparent as glass here. And I’m as open as a book. I’m not trying to spin anything, push an agenda, push a narrative, or anything of the sort. You are getting this information from not being able to understand that I ACTUALLY mean everything I’m saying. Maybe it’s hard to comprehend that I’m simply being honest, but I am. I don’t see why I shouldn’t just be honest. My “attitude” as you call it, is simply to bring out the best in the team as a whole. And do whatever I can to make sure we are, ever so slightly, closer to victory. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I don’t have any double standards or anything like this either, I actually want them to criticize me aswell whenever/if I do something bad. It would help me to stay focused aswell. There is no hard feelings.
What exactly would be “proof” of this in your eyes? I can tell you by experience that I’ve had alot of situations where this has helped out. Whether you believe me or not is not something that is easy to “prove” in that sense. I see the results, and therefore I keep doing it. The amount of people who have a problem with my criticisms is incredibly small. And the payoff is a better, more wholesome experience where morale is high, we can have fun, and we all learn from our mistakes. If that’s not a net-positive in your eyes, then I don’t know what is…
Factually incorrect. Name ONE thing I’m doing that is toxic…
Winning is the ultimate goal in ranked. Just because it isn’t for you, doesn’t mean your zen-thinking of not letting anything tilt you to be more correct. It might work for you, and if it does, then keep doing you man, it doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is that you think my behavior is toxic, simply for not having the same philosophy as you do. But honestly, there are tons more people who are like me, and prefer to address issues in ranked, and play it super seriously. Your “super serious” is very different from my “super serious”, but more people would be aligned with my version compared to yours. Your version of super serious seems like a more casual style than mine, and there is nothing wrong with that, I’m not saying that makes me better or something like this, and I have to make that very very clear for you, as that’s probably how you would take it, but I play as if I have a gun to my head. That’s how I prefer to play ranked. I HAVE TO win. That’s my mentality. I’m fully aware that I’m not going to win always and all the time, but that’s still the way I play ranked. Like it actually matters. Your style, is more casual, as you focus more on your own development, and focus on having a good time. Win or lose is not important for you. You just “go again”. For me, it matters. And it’s the same for many others aswell. And that’s just fine. So me criticizing others for not playing at their absolute best, their highest level of focus, and have the ultimate goal of winning, is something I’m simply going to continue doing, and in the same process, avoid stepping on any toes or being toxic. If they can’t handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If they can’t handle people taking ranked seriously, then don’t play ranked. It’s as simple as that, and nothing bad or toxic about this at all. And whether you find it pathetic or not, quite frankly says more about you and your matureity, than it does mine. I’m still being very very respectful to them.
blah blah blah, huh? So this seems to confirm that you are not taking me seriously, even though I’m being very open, honest and transparent with you. It’s not like I don’t care about people AT ALL. I’m simply saying I don’t care about them on a personal level. If I did, that would be rather ridiculous. As I don’t really know them, and I never will. Doesn’t mean I can’t wish them all things well in their lives, as we part ways never to see eachother again after 10-20 mins.
Again, you would have to define what would be “hard evidence” for you. I see the results in my matches. Not sure why you would want any more evidence than this… It sounds like you’re grasping at straws because you can’t wrap your head around what I’m saying.
Just, lol. I have compassion, and I’m not toxic. I have no idea why you think otherwise. I’ve been crystal clear and completely honest this whole time. How any of what I’ve said would lead you to believe this is beyond me.
No. That is why you tell your Rein things like “bubble in 2” and “I dont have bubble”. Never said the Rein was in the right, just an idea of how you could have worked round it. Main tank playing very aggressively… You either play very aggressively too or get mad about it. Going with the flow is more of an interesting challenge. 66% win rate playing Rein aggressively, it can work.
Trolling? never said that. I said it is toxic. Because it is.
Yes I am trolling because I prefer to not be toxic. I prefer to focus on self improvement. The cheek of me to not criticise others.