A plea for dealing with leavers. Losing interest in the game

General Discussion
162

It might seem like that here in writing, as you can’t hear my tone of voice here as I’m telling them this. If you heard it through voice, you would understand that this is simply “shotcalling” and “strategical feedback”. I don’t claim to be above them, but everyone needs a leader to call the shots to make sure everyone is on the same page. If someone else wants to claim that before me, I’m perfectly willing to give away my position.

Some things are, other things are not. Meta is an example of this. The higher rank you are, the more the game is determined by meta. But in lower levels, it’s more determined by heroes that players have the most skill with and feel more comfortable playing.

Criticizing and flaming are 2 vastly different things. There is no spin here. Hindsight is what we learn from. If they were willing to listen before(regardless if it’s from me or someone else willing to lead), they wouldn’t need to hear this in hindsight in the first place. It’s simply not toxic at all. Toxicity would be to berate them, which I don’t.

My point exactly, but the game is dynamic. You can’t have a plan and stick to it “no matter what”. You have to adapt to the situations at hand, which is why my comments to them are not toxic in the first place.

Define “having a go at them” in your eyes. I mean, you could report me if you feel like it. But if it was reviewed, it would be clear as day that I was simply trying to make things clear for people. There is no arrogance or berating in my voice, simply a statement meant to show them what they should be doing in order to make our chances of winning higher. Everyone makes mistakes, but we are also supposed to learn from them. In order for them to not happen again in the smae match, by the same people, it would be better to make sure they know about it, even in hindsight. It’s to prevent a repeat of the mistakes that was made. Nothing toxic about that, unless I was berating them and using unneccesary bad language, but as I stated earlier, that’s not what I do, as it would only serve to lower morale. And that would work against my goal in the first place, which would make me a moron that deserved to get reported if I did.

People making mistakes is not what I want to spend my 3 avoids on. I reserve that for people who are going afk, throwing on purpose etc. I’m very selective with who I avoid. If we had like 10 avoids instead, sure, I could just do this. But that’s not the case. So better to tell them instead. If they think it’s so painful for them that I’m shotcalling and hurting their pride, then they can avoid me instead.

Again, you would have to define in your own words what “having a go at someone” is, in your eyes. It’s more tilting to me to not say anything at all. I’m not perfect either, just like everyone else, which is why I’m willing to change and adapt in however way they want me to. I don’t mind one bit. And I’ll be the first to apologize if I make a mistake. Pride means nothing to me.

The game has to move forward. Especially as attacker. If our tank is not doing what he is supposed to, I would have to take a safe position, which means I’m far back, and not being able to progress at all. That would mean the enemy team “wins” the fights, because our timer on pushing is just slowly running out while we have to hide in the backline. So again, it could be the tank’s fault. If he keeps doing this mistake over and over, we have the choice of either waiting around and not progressing while the timer slowly drains away, OR, play in a risky way where we have to play as 6 individuals, instead of playing as 1 team. Not a good solution, and definitely blame would be on the tank if it’s because of him that we have to take risky positions, and end up dying.

This is a perfect sign of a game where everyone plays as individuals instead of as a team, not a good idea. Having 1 player flank is fine, like a reaper, sombra or junk or whatever. but simply going alone to someplace, all that is needed to deal with that would be for the enemy team to call out: “Reaper/sombra/junk flanking”, and I would be promptly eliminated by a group. Even more so if I would have to do this as a character that isn’t very strong on flanking. Playing WITH your tank, and him doing what is best for the team, increases the odds of winning drastically. And if he has no interest in doing so, then he is indirectly responsible for many of our teams deaths. It’s really that simple.

Again, if I’m forced into a situation where I either have to play ultra-safe to avoid dying because of an incompetent tank, wasting our time to do the objective, OR, to desperately attempt to do solo-play flanks that will easily lead to deaths for me, then there is really no choices left to make.

Choices would essentially boil down to:

  • Safely hide from enemy team and let timer run out, because tank isn’t doing his job
  • Play risky and most likely die, but with a small chance to pull off something that allows us to push the objective even a little bit, as to not waste our timer.

Sure, but there is no arrogance in what I’m saying. It’s simply shotcalling and strategy to try to assure our victory. Victory in ranked is clearly more fun than a loss, so it’s also in the interest of fun. Peaceful is not a necessity in ranked. Staying calm and collected is good, but peaceful? nah. We should do our utmost in order to utterly destroy the enemy team. That’s what ranked is all about. It’s a SERIOUS mode, and should be considered as such.

163

Any form of criticism is “having a go” at someone. It isn’t necessary.

Strategies and shot calling is all excellent. But if it doesn’t go to play, you don’t need to say “x y z was bad” “you shouldn’t have done that”… You can simply just shot call another plan.

You might think you are being good trying to correct peoples mistakes. But sadly that isn’t what happens. People won’t listen to some tilted player in voice constantly telling them they did wrong. That isn’t how effective leadership works.

One of the best managers I have ever worked under had one simple philosophy. If a mistake was made, it was because the instructions weren’t clear enough.

So, based on that, if you shot call and come up with a plan… and then it doesn’t go well… was your shot calling good enough. Was it clear. Did everyone understand what the plan was going into the fight.

And given that 99% of comms outside of the very highest level are just noise and waffle… maybe just ease off on your team if they don’t quite execute your master plan perfectly.

164

Or they were clear enough but you just made a mistake

Being “Tilted” doesn’t necessarily affect your performance, you can get annoyed and simply still stay focused :man_shrugging:

Pretty much.

Yeah he is kinda special. :slight_smile:

165

I take ranked seriously.

I just don’t get made when mistakes are made, because mistakes happen.

I also know if I lose a load of games in a row, nothing really changes. I can go again and win other games.

But you thinking someone is “special” because they don’t complain about their team mates and just gets on with his job is a little bit toxic. And exactly why I flag posts like that.

166

That’s a very peculiar statement. The necessity is based on the fact that they should stop doing the same mistakes multiple times. I’m not tearing them apart by pointing out a mistake they make, and if it hurts them so much, then they need to grow a thicker skin, and discard their pride.

And I gave examples of what I would actually say. And also, I made it pretty clear that you don’t make a plan, and go in, expecting everything to go perfectly as planned. The game is dynamic, and decisions needs to be made on the fly. Which is why you tell people what to do, and what NOT to do. And that is shotcalling in it’s purest form.

I don’t get tilted in the way I explain to them. If I was, I would be more like: “What the f*** are you guys doing?!?!? Are you re****ed or something?!?! OMG, trash!” THIS is an example of tilted. And it’s not even remotely close to what I would say to them, as I clearly explained in my previous post. And ofcourse, if I behaved like this tilted example I just gave, there is no doubt that this would be a lack of leadership. But again, that’s not what I’m doing.

In a dynamic game there is a limited time to get information out, as it usually has to be relayed fast and effective. Me saying for example: “Genji behind”, really means: “There is a genji behind us, please be cautious, and if possible, we should try to kill him as he is out of position and all alone. We should punish him.” If the message “Genji behind” doesn’t relay effective enough to players, then they are lacking in knowledge of the game, and how fast that could lead to our downfall. It’s just pure and simple. And going into more details than this should be very unneccessary. The message should be clear, and for most people, it would be. Same with messages like: “Pharah has to die”. Hitscans should know from this that they have to step up their game. If something is preventing them, they have to relay this info back, and something can be done.

It was definitely clear enough, as speaking alot in ranked is not necessary. Only relay useful info for everyone to hear. And speaking in short, concise, informative sentences is the best way to do so. Unless they are lacking in understanding of the game and it’s flow and characters.

Going into the fight, there is not really any “plan” per say. You don’t go into a fight, saying: “okay, so when we get around this corner, nuke the mercy, and then next and next etc”. What then if the mercy is running away? should all of us just run through the enemy team, getting peeled 1 by 1, just because we all stick to a plan that didn’t work(and would be easy to see wouldn’t as soon as we round the corner), when what we should be doing is stick together as a team, and just take things as we go?

Master plan, lol. I didn’t make a master plan, it’s just obvious what needs to be done. If comms are 99% noise and waffle, does that mean I should just join this 99%? or would it be better to actually try to take some responsibility for my game and try to lead my team to victory? Like I said before, I don’t mind not being leader. But I won’t stick around and wait for someone else to claim the role. They can if they want, and it would be great, and I’ll follow what they say. But waiting around for someone else to take this role, when it could be that no one wants to do so, would just be like shooting myself in the leg.

167

Having a go is British slang, so I should make it clearer…

some copy/pasting…
phrase. If someone has a go at you, they criticize you, often in a way that you feel is unfair.

And as always. You might think your plan is good. Someone might not be listening, another might think it is nonsense. So don’t get mad when it doesn’t work.

We are all bad players just trying to get the job done afterall.

Ultimately, you can spin it how you like. Write all the tales you like to justify your actions.

Complaining at your team mates is toxic behaviour.

### Behavior

Behavior that intentionally detracts from others’ enjoyment (such as griefing, throwing, feeding, etc.) is unacceptable. We expect our players to treat each other with respect and promote an enjoyable environment. Acceptable behavior is determined by player reports and Blizzard’s decision, and violating these guidelines will result in account and gameplay restrictions.

While we encourage you to report players that are behaving in a disrespectful manner, falsely reporting another player with the sole intent of restricting their gameplay is also unacceptable and will result in penalties to your account.

Just sounds like griefing.

168

Nope, I just meant your way of thinking. Go ahead, I do the same, no skin off my nose. Special isn’t exactly a bad word though, it’s considered a nice one. :slight_smile:

169

No, I am not taking any offence. Just making it down for what it is. Trolling.

We are having a discussion and I am not sure what you are trying to achieve.

170

If only you read the stuff you spout about.

171

Yeah. Talking about maintaining a positive attitude is trolling.

Suggesting personal improvement, that sounds trolling too.

Or do you have a better example of trolling? or is it wrong to try and promote a more positive approach to the game.

172

What is unfair about me pointing it out? It’s what they did… Simply pointing it out wouldn’t make it unfair. If I told a dps hitscan that it’s his fault we are losing, and this happens when there is 5 mins left of the game, it would be unfair. But me pointing out that he should focus the pharah when there is 5 minutes to go, means he has ample amounts of time to start doing so, especially if I can clearly see that he is not shooting at her, but instead at a rein shield.

Because my plan IS good. I have plenty of experience, and know alot about how this game works. If someone is not listening, this I can not do anything about. I could try to write to them to join voice if possible, but not in the middle of battle. And they might not join ten either. If someone thinks my plan is bad, then they are very welcome to take the lead instead, and present us all with a better plan. Like I said, I have no “master plan”, just a very logical strategic suggestion. Not necessarily the best, but still better than silence.

Factually incorrect. Not all players are “bad” by definition.

How you came to the conclusion that I’m disrespectful for pointing out mistakes is beyond me. It’s not disrespectful in the least. My behaviour is like I’ve stated multiple times, CALM and COLLECTED. Criticism isn’t inherently bad, and if you think it is, you are simply wrong. I’m taking charge when nobody else wants to, and that’s completely different from griefing and being toxic etc as you suggest. Criticism is not a BAD thing by itself. It depends HOW you criticize, which I’ve given multiple examples of.

If this is referring to what I’ve been writing earlier, that I’m somehow not promoting a “positive attitude” by criticizing, then I would like to know what you think would be more logical to do. If someone is doing terrible, and I just go like: “Keep it up guys! stay positive, we can do this!”, if you think this could lead to a victory, you are delusional. Saying words of encouragement in and of itself doesn’t lead to victory. It leads to better morale, but if the gameplay doesn’t match the positive reinforcements, it’s just a hollow, meaningless sentence, which won’t affect the team morale at all.
Praising when they do great is very good for morale, and criticizing when someone does something bad in a calm collected way also shows a level of respect, and simply points out that “it’s fine, just don’t let it happen again”.
Nothing bad about it at all.

173

Key word there is OFTEN, not always. And if they feel it is unfair, then they have every right to report. If that is their feeling.

Criticism isn’t inherently bad. But you are reliant on the recipient taking it the right way… And as you have no idea who they are, their mood, and so on. Just don’t do it. You are not helping anyone in the long run.

Not this is Wolfie thinking that because I don’t tilt and don’t see the need to criticise that I am trolling. He can keep coming in with little snide comments, but again that just proves my point.

He is very serious about his games. That is fine. I take my games seriously too. But I will never complain or moan about thing because it just isn’t worth it.

The amount of times you hear someone criticise in voice only to be met by a barrage of abuse from the other players. Game is lost then.

I find a way to enjoy every game I play. Because if it isn’t enjoyable, why play at all.

You talk about taking influence from the high levels. Watch Emongg and tell me, if he thinks his team is at fault when he loses…

174

What often? If they keep making mistake after mistake, then I’m GOING to point it out to them. As long as I’m telling them in a constructive way, they can report me all they like, as I’ve not done anything wrong. How THEY feel about a calm, collected feedback on how they are doing things wrong, is irrelevant. If that makes them annoyed at me, and want to report me, then they have my permission to do so. I didn’t break any rules by their pride and ego getting hurt. Pride and ego are pointless to me, and it’s very much a problem for them, not me, or the rest of the team.

Incorrect. If they take it as a negative thing when it’s clearly constructive and with good will in mind, then it’s not on me. Just like you said right after this: “as you have no idea who they are, their mood, and so on.”, there is NO way for me to know this, and I shouldn’t keep things to myself that can help us win the game, as long as I relay this message to them and the rest of the team. I’m not going to let them have their pride and ego, if that means my chances of winning are decreased. That would be a foolish thing to do.

I’m helping myself, and the rest of my team. The only person affected would be someone with an ego-problem or a very prideful person. And I don’t care about thier pride and ego, as these are useless attributes.

If you refrain from complaining with constructive criticism, then I’d say his passion to win is on a higher level than yours, which would also be backed by what you’ve said in earlier posts, where you see it more like: “it’s fine, just go again”. Wolfie and I disagree with this being “fine”. It’s NOT fine, it happens, but it doesn’t mean it should. And that just means we take it MORE serious than you do. Which is fine, I’m not in a position to make you care about it as much as I do. But when you then say stuff like: “just get better”, when this is very far from what the problem often is, it IS very frustrating to hear, when our experience simply shows it’s not.

Depends HOW you criticize. Constructive criticism is very different from criticizing them in a berating way.

This perfectly encapsulates why I prefer to play QP over ranked. As I don’t have to deal with situations where I get frustrated and annoyed by bad players. In qp, they can be as bad as they want. I’m not losing anything by losing there. So there it’s completely fine for me. In order for me to enjoy ranked, the match has to be either in favor of my team(like my team steamrolling, as this gives me free sr, good times), OR, an incredibly even match, where we either win or lose. A super equal match is one of the best things in this game, and a victory on top of that just puts the cherry on top. A loss in this scenario is fine though, as I would fine it incredibly enjoyable just to play against a team that is as good as ours.

I’ve watched all sorts of players playing, not just one specific dude. I’d recommend watching the OW league instead, as you get to see much more teamplay than from a single streamer you fancy. I look at highlevel players in general, not just specific people. I have no idea what Emongg’s opinions and philosophies are. And it doesn’t really mean much to get his opinion over anyone elses in the higher ranks. And presumably, if he is a high ranked player, I’m sure his team is also fairly high ranked, and probably is on par with him anyways. Meaning they might not do very many mistakes at all. The smallest mistakes can be capitalized on, and that’s very often what happens in the high tier games. The game demands that someone has to lose, and someone has to win. In rare situations, a draw is made, but this happens very rarely.

175

Yep. Oh, but you can simply tell those players that “It’s just a game, better luck next game” without sharing any constructive criticism because it’s apparently trolling and you’re tilted. :')

Funny thing is though, you’re the one majoring trolling others. You’re alone here pal.

Oh you do not, which you’ve proved several times on these forums.

176

It is not on you? Well, unluckily the Overwatch in game code of conduct says you are responsible for your own actions.

So if someone thinks you are being disruptive by criticising all the time… Then you have to accept that and take the punishment.

When I was in bronze/silver, I used to criticise, and ask why people did things all the time. Stopped it, started enjoying playing games more. Won a lot more and got away from the players I originally thought were my issue.

In hindsight, I was my own issue, because I used to get tilted at what others were doing. Rather than just going with the flow and trying to make the best of every situation.

177

You have proof I don’t take it seriously?

Just because I don’t get hung up on the result doesn’t mean I don’t try hard.

Last night I was trying my best for 10 games. Only thing I said the whole time was “gg wp” at the end of each match.

ZR5D9C
G1NNPB
DX4DAG
SJAP9H
9HGK5J
0KC3C5
C8P876

(i’d share all 10, but I was playing random arcade modes in between to break up the open que games)

Feel free to tell me when I wasn’t taking the match seriously.

And explain exactly what trolling is while you are at it.

178

The CoC says nothing about criticizing in a constructive and calm way at all. So ofcourse I don’t mind taking responsibility for my actions, I mean what I’m saying.

If they get that impression when I’m saying it in a clear, constructive and calm way, then like I said before, they have all the rights in the world to report me all they like. But upon review, it will be obvious to blizz that I’ve not broken any CoC’s. In fact, they would see me as a person wanting people to perform at their best, and doing shotcalling in order to try to bring out the best from others, potentially leading to a victory.
If the person I criticize has a feeble, weakminded pride and ego-issue, then that’s not my fault. It’s their own problem. Simply leaning back and accepting a loss instead of using my voice to try to rectify the situation would be extremely counterproductive.

Might be due to that particular bracket, as no people in those brackets are considered particularly “good” players. Rules there work alot differently than they do in platinum and higher. And solo-plays is even a more viable thing there if you have bad teammates, as you can ACTUALLY pull off some sneaky moves on people there with a flank etc. Doesn’t mean it works in higher tiers, and I can assure you, they most often don’t.

Like I just explained, the flow in that tier bracket is very different. It doesn’t work like that in higher tiers.

179

No, it says “Behavior that detracts from others’ enjoyment (such as griefing, throwing, feeding, etc.)”

I’d say someone criticising could quite rightly be seen as detracting from the players enjoyment. And other players on the team probably don’t want to listen to it/read it either.

“we encourage you to report players that are behaving in a disrespectful manner”

If you are doing it in voice, they have no record of the conversation. So then it is a case of volume reports. If you are getting reported a lot for it, it will be deemed a pattern of behaviour and acted upon.

I do enjoy people thinking they are suddenly good because they are in plat… Honestly this is why you criticise people. You might have the right intentions, you might have the correct strat. But somewhere in your head you have this subconscious idea that you know best, you are the better player and that your team must be wrong.

We’ve all been there. But the reason we are in the same game as them is because we are on their level. So don’t criticise them, because you will be making just as many mistakes as them.

Having a play is one thing, thinking your right is another.

Last game I played in comms, I knew going Rein, Zarya, Lucio, Bap rush was the correct play. But no one else wanted they wanted to play a slower more passive game. So I went along, made the best of it and at the end said “gg wp” and went on my way to another match.

180

They being able to do exactly what they want to do to enjoy themselves, at the expense of other players on their team without being criticized for it, doesn’t make my behaviour bad. They even put examples of this type of behavior in the parenthesis: "(such as griefing, throwing, feeding, etc.)”. I’m not griefing, throwing or feeding, or anything to that effect at all. I’m simply trying to point out mistakes, and shotcall what should be done.

And why is that you think? when all I’m doing is criticizing in a constructive way? If they can’t handle criticism at all, then sure, they will have a problem with it. But, that’s because of their ego and pride. And I’ve already made it clear that they can put that where the sun don’t shine. Their ego and pride is useless to me, and everyone else on my team. So if that bothers them, be my guest and report me. But in fact, by doing so, they are potentially breaking the CoC instead: " falsely reporting another player with the sole intent of restricting their gameplay is also unacceptable and will result in penalties to your account.

Criticizing is not disrespectful in and of itself. It would depend on how it’s being done, which I made clear many times, I’m calm, collected, and constructive. I’m not berating them, or being disrespectful.

I’m pretty sure blizz can hear the voice-comms if they want. Makes more sense that they will be able to, than not. And if they do, they will instantly see that I’m being very respectful in my criticism and praises.

Well, this is probably the most mixed bag in the tier tree, after all. As it’s straight in the middle, and people get overconfident. Good thing I’m in diamond and got past that ruffle of strange players. Gold was better in terms of consistency.

I never claimed to know best. And I actually never said that. I never said that my team is wrong either. I simply said I won’t WAIT and waste time for someone else to take the leader-role. But if someone wants to do it instead of me, or have a better idea of what we should do, I’m all ears, and I’ll follow the leader’s example. I said this already. Not sure why you think I have such a high view of myself when I clearly stated that I don’t. My actions and writing proves it. Just because I’m claiming to see errors in what players do, doesn’t mean that I’m perfect, never make mistakes, or know exactly what to do in all situations. And if that’s what you got out of it, then you are not really reading what I’m saying at all. I’ve been pretty concise and clear in my writing here, so not sure how you get such a skewed picture of what I’m saying by reading my posts. It’s pretty disingenuous of you, honestly.

Not necessarily. And even if so, I’d rather they tell me if I should change something, and increase our odds of victory, than if they don’t say anything at all. Likewise, I would do the same to them.

Saying “Thinking I’m right” implies that you think I’m saying that I know best, and everyone not following my direction is bad or doing the wrong thing. Especially when you mix in this example of a build. I’m not speaking about builds at all. meta builds doesn’t start to get highly important until you reach a bit into diamond, where players skills are starting to get more consistent. In lower tiers, your personal skill with a champion is of MUCH higher value than a meta. Although, if you can do both at the same time, it will obviously make a noticeable difference. But your build-example doesn’t really reflect what I’ve been saying this whole time. I’m speaking of more generic, standard stuff. Like, don’t waste ults, don’t allow enemy team to dominate the skies if we have hitscans, focus fire on correct targets etc. Builds is a completely different thing. If you CAN accommodate builds, then sure, that’s great! But I honestly don’t care about meta. I don’t need a copy paste game every single round, and skill always trumps meta. But in later stages of the game, you have to accommodate for BOTH more and more.

I always say ggwp at the end of matches, it’s just common courtesy.

181

I like that you are saying personal skill in lower ranks is more important (Wolfie take note). Because that is what I focus on. Improving myself as a player.

Criticising players, whatever the intention, shows that you think you know better. Being deliberate arrogance, or just a subconscious thought. It is irrelevant.

Mistakes happen. Sometimes people don’t have the skill to pull off your suggestion. Some times they have a style ingrained into their mind and no matter how many times you say something, they won’t change. And that is why they get stuck in their rank, or fall back.

Where as you might learn, evolve and improve. Thus your MMR will go up and you will slowly climb.

the mistakes made might cost the fight, or even the match. So be it. They will not cost you your MMR (unless it is you repeatedly making the mistakes). So if you 50/50 win rate, you will still climb a little if you are performing well as an individual (till you hit 3k).

So is there a need to point out others mistakes? You have no provided me an example where it has benefitted the overall playing experience of all involved.