I would disagree.
I believe in a sense m+ are more difficult than some raid bosses.
Allow me to explain. While the m+ hp, enermy damage numbers are lower and they are cleared faster and thus farmable. They are also unforgiving.
M+ = Proper group setup. Everyone executing mechanics flawlesly(or at least good enough). 1 death on some higher keys(and tyran even) can mean a wipe. In some scenarios a wipe can pretty much seal the fate of the key. In short extremely unforgiving - 1 person slipping up=whole group…and sometimes even whole run is busted.
Raid(HC): 2-5/20 people down? No problem!(Heck…on first bosses. 50% of the raid team can be dead and its still a kill). Party setup? Sure bring 18 mele for a laugh=the first bosses will simply get steamrolled anyway).
So if we would compare:
A “casual” +10 = 1 clueless person can wipe the whole group(I am talking in scenarios when all are equally geared and etc. Not a boosting run)
A “casual” HC raid = As long as there are at least 12-14 people who are aware of what to do then the rest (in 20 man group) can just monkey around. Well on… first bosses very likely
So…M+s are still easier BECAUSE…they are done in a shorter time?
You’re not wrong here. When this tier started the only raid gear I had was 2 mythic BoE’s I got of the AH. All the rest was from m+.
Raids have been relegated to get a quick baseline gear level to then gear up via weekly chests, which is a shame.
The discussion is about the fact that a 10 is spammable and rewards the same (plus the weekly cache) of a heroic raid which is on the weekly lockout.
The difficulty is subjective and debatable, personally i find harder a heroic raid because require more coordination and has many more fail point than a 5 man group.
I guess this will be much less of a issue if the weekly cache dropped 400max and the +10 400 only if done in time.
IMO it is coordination in M+ (pulls, pulltimes, positioning, interrupt rotations, cooldowncoordination between players, etc.). In raid it is getting ‘everyone’ (a bigger group than in M+) doing all exactly the same thing while some players maybe get a special job in between. Which is not coordination.
if you just care about gear then you only have 3 weeks game time per major patch anyways…
The only gear that is better than m+10 weekly is mythic raid.
Even if I spawn another 100 mythic 10s, I still don’t get better gear unless I hit the titanforge lottery.
I don’t get why it actually means anything if you can farm 400 gear. It also takes some time, but it is not weekly locked. To get higher gear you are also weekly locked and for azerite you are locked 3 weeks for 1 piece
Heroic is the same tourist mode for casuals, just like lfr or normal. If you are real raider you raid mythic and loot gear 15 ilvl higher than casual content offers (no matter if it’s m+, heroic raid or warfront).
Fair opinion. I see it differently. Coordinate 5 is easier than coordinatin 20/30.
Not every fight is just move from a to b etc. Think at mekka, you have to coordinate people inside the bots, people with the bombs, healer cd’s.
Same for the conclave, coordinate position of everyone for the frogs, cc raptor, tank swapping etc.
The more the people, the more canches of a mistake and a wipe. Sure raid size can absorb a couple of death but outcomes may vary a lot.
Mythic raiding is separate from the rest as there is no equivalent.
Let’s say you’re happy with a 400 ilvl gear, you can spam mythic as much as you like increasing the chances of a TF and of getting the item you need.
If i need a weapon, boda gives me 2 chances (4 with coins) a week, while with +10 i have several option all endlessly repeatable until i drop one.
This repeatability is what trivialize heroic raiding. M+ should be an alternative way to gear for non raiders but it’s turning out to be a better and quicker way to gear.
For me is either cap how many 10 you can do a week, or remove weekly lockout on heroic loot.
Not really, no. The gap between normal and heroic is pretty big, same from heroic to mythic, with few bosses as exception.
That’s fair, sometimes. There’s times where our heroic nights are more frustrating than our mythic ones because of the socials who have less raiding pedigree.
However, even in that situation, it depends a lot on the boss. Mekkatorgue has a lot of overall personal responsibility, sure, but Gronk doesn’t and the lion’s share falls unto 6-7 people. Then some fights like Conclave and Opulence are somewhere in between with responsibilities varying even for the same role. (for example amethyst healers compared to saphire healers in opulence)
Even then, however, boss fights are not as demanding in concentration as a high level key, at least not in the same manner. With trash mobs being harder this expansion, timed M+ might as well be treated as a 30-40 minute boss fight with gauntlets inbetween. So the balance shifts towards longer times of concentration from less people, whereas raids are smaller time frames of concentration from more people.
I liked because it is a good post. I do not have the same opinion, but it is a good post.
I haven’t seen these bosses on heroic yet. But usually it is just getting a whole group getting the knowledge/experience to get the bosses killed. That does need indeed on some bosses coordination. I can start a whole list of other raidbosses (of previous raids) where it is just ‘avoid this, run away with that, prioritize adds’.
You also can just wipe and try again on a raid boss. In M+ you have to do the whole dungeon perfect to get it in time. It is a lot more than 1 boss, and you do not get a retry after a duck-up.
But it is different opinions I do see your point of view.
IN both cases it’s down to invidual performance. You do not ‘coordiante’ with 20 people in the raid, you just are donig your job alongside 20 or 5 people most of the time. However raid is much friendlier enviroment for hiding and keeping in players with poor performance.
Failure is not always visible and clear but still as impactful. For example in m+, if someone made bad call or ninja pulled or something tht caused wipe group lost say 2 min recovering. But how many minutes lost because of having deeps with 15k overall in +11? More than 2 min, but it’s not as visible as ninja pull and often goes unnoticable. Or another example, someone dying in poop is very visible and easily spottable, but if someone takes half health bar damage in every second poop without dying then it’s not that obvious, eventhough it applies presures on healer forcing him/her waste time drinking and healing avoidable damage instead of dpsing.
In the end, players hit the wall in m+ and can’t progress further, because they are filtered out by rio addon and/or gear (if they hit the wall before +10). Then such players can stick to where they belong, git gud and advance further or blame blizzard for putting “apes” into “their” groups.
In raid poorly performing people are not getting filtered that way, because they are guildes/friends/etc. IN the end many casual guilds have so much deadweight in their raid that it makes progressing impossible and so does making impression that raid significantly harder than m+. Which is just illusion made possible because of huge skill disparity in many raids, while m+ groups are mostly around the same skill level.
I agree with you that heroic raiding can be hard content for majority of the playerbase, I seen in this tier some of the better raiders wiping on heroic fights and the fact is that not many guilds in the game have cleared current heroic raid to full. About the comparison between the difficulty of the high mythic dungeons and heroic raiding, I would say how that’s depending on the fight or the dungeon/affixes and how that differs, for me as a healer a lot of the times mythic dungeons are harder than the heroic raids because my responsibility there is much bigger. And personally as someone who is doing heroic raids and who loves raiding I don’t see mythic + as a threat to raiding and as something which trivializes it, but as a content which me and my friends/guildies can do on the side when we are not raiding, and which can help us to gear up so that we can push more our raid progression.
just my own oppinion, first of all I can not se a problem whit +10 being easy, for me they aint so easy, but quite fun and challenging, also what I always felt is that raiding should always be for the thrill and gear second, raiding for gear is just not a good idea in anyways atleast not for me, gear is and will always be a bonus you get, and if someone likes to gear them selfs up whit M+ then so be it, do someone want to gear up whit only raids, that is their thing then.
I just can not get the idea on why someone would even care about how others gear up, even if the OP ment that gear in raids should be higher than M+ or M +10 be more difficult, I just can not aggree whit it at all, becuse in an MMO one way to gear up should never be the thing, and I am glad it aint, becuse honestly making M+10 harder would contribute in even less people being able to do it, let alone get in to groups due to the difficult and not all can gear up whit raiding only, it just do not work at all.
I maybe missed that, except that beetle that needed CC of those adds and a little GHuun… Most is just watch the youtube, get some experience in the pulls. Even Zul got zerged with dps everything down asap to get asap in 2nd phase without getting more adds. It is really minor coordination to place a marker for bloods or make groups of 3 for mother or a marker for where to stack.
Edit:
I maybe do have to add that I am a healer, since someone above me does that too.
How good or bad your group is in raiding or mythic plus dictates how well you are going to get on with it. There is no difference between a headless chicken raid or m+. Both will fail if players don’t play together. Mythic plus quickly turns into a big mess if people can’t stick to an interrupt order or break cc, ninja pull stuff walking into patrols or static mobs.
Mythic plus varies it’s affixes every week, raids generally don’t undergo many changes other than the odd hotfix here and there.
You may be able to run M+ all day long but the loot maximum is 400 ilvl (excluding TF). So really unless you specifically need a drop from one dungeon you aren’t going to repeatedly run the same place. It’s also no easy task. While some might get lucky I remember one of our mages running WM 21 times before getting a trinket he needed.
There is just too much RNG, with both the dungeon and the weekly chest. When you completing a dungeon, will you actually get loot, will that loot be something useful. I d/e or trade away the bulk of my drops from mythic plus. The weekly chest is even worse and rarely gives me anything useful.
And we have the TR vendor who likes to give me terrible pieces when I buy a random 415 item
I do think Blizzard throws gear at players far more now than ever before, but at least doing Mythic Plus you are actually working for it IMO.
Nope. I’ll give you 2 quick examples.
Mekkatorque bots, you cannot see your code so you MUST have imput from someone else. Coordination.
Conclave: you need to coordinate healers big cc for the bird, failing one is a huge mana burn for them likely resulting in a wipe.
Mother: you need to coordinate groups for moving between rooms in a manner that won’t kill half a raid, and coordinate cc (at least in mythic) to avoid add casting.
So you’re not doing your job alongside 20 people, you work in a group of 20. it’s different.
No way +10 is easier than heroic raiding. Maybe you are ignoring the fact that once you had to learn how a certain dungeon works it makes it easier. So you go and do the dungeon because you know it and raiding feels harder since BoD is new for you.
I think the 2 content are in the same difficulty range. Cant help if your guild or pugs suck in the new raid.
Also try doing 10s with the same monkeys from my guild i boosted last week will see how easy it is.
![:smiley:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
I do see your point of view.