Instanced Content Updates in MoP Classic

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
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Greetings!

As we’ve put a lot of thought and care into crafting the upcoming Mists of Pandaria Classic experience, we’ve developed two important updates, and we’d like to provide insight into them.

Raid Finder in MoP Classic

The journey through development of Classic expansions has given us countless opportunities to look back on the intent (and the outcomes) of decisions that the original team made about certain features. Fortunately, we’ve gotten to discuss those decisions with the same team members who made them (because they’re still here at Blizzard) and ask whether they were successful in accomplishing their goals.

We’ve also listened intently to players as they recounted their memories and experiences with the original content, which we’ve been given the incredible opportunity to bring to life once again, both for players who experienced it first back in the day, as well as for all-new players living it for the first time.

In 2011, raiding was a relatively niche activity, largely limited to organized guild groups that expected a fixed raiding schedule, and pickup groups doing current content were nonexistent on most realms. Thus, the development team introduced Raid Finder towards the end of Cataclysm to make raiding more accessible, despite recognizing that it would weaken some social bonds, because so few people were actually getting to face the Lich King or see Ragnaros after playing through Molten Front content.

In progression Classic, however, we’ve seen far, far more players participating in Normal raiding, and there is every reason to expect that to continue into Mists Classic.

Considering all points of view and weighing our options very carefully, we made the decision to develop MoP Classic without the Raid Finder system.

Classic Progression realms have evolved differently over the last five years than original WoW did in 2007-2012. Classic players have built a robust and consistent raiding ecosystem, and we believe that moving into MoP Classic without a Raid Finder system will set the stage for a stronger raiding community to emerge.

Of course, that leaves us with two questions: How will players progress through the Legendary quest, and how will players obtain “Raid Finder-tier" gear?

Introducing Celestial Dungeons

Celestial Dungeons are a new dungeon difficulty in Mists of Pandaria Classic that stand as the culmination of everything we’ve learned from Titan Rune Dungeons in Wrath of the Lich King Classic and Elemental Rune Dungeons in Cataclysm Classic.

Celestial Dungeons are:

  • A new, additional difficulty tier.
  • Selectable from the Dungeon Finder.
  • Designed for players who are ready to move beyond Heroic dungeons.
  • Infused with occasional raid-level mechanics and enemies, including appearances from bosses of the current raid tier.

Inside, players will commune with the August Celestials, gaining powerful blessings to help overcome enhanced challenges. Strategic use of these blessings will be key to success. You’ll also find:

  • Gear that offers more power than Heroic Dungeon gear, including all items that used to drop in Raid Finder, particularly tier pieces.
  • Items that will be target-farmable as well as random drops.
  • Currency dropped by bosses that can be used to purchase a wide variety of the above.
  • Legendary quest progress, with quest additions made to preserve the lore, should players choose to use Celestial Dungeons rather than Raids to progress the legendary quest chain.

And Celestial Dungeons will grow with each raid tier. Throne of Thunder and Siege of Orgrimmar will bring new threats and rewards and new Celestial powers to master. Previous tier rewards will remain available, so transmog hunters and collectors won’t miss out.

Celestial Dungeons will go live two weeks after Mogu’shan Vaults opens, giving players time to explore the raid before diving into this new challenge.

We believe this approach keeps the spirit of Classic alive—rewarding commitment, encouraging social play, and offering meaningful progression, while still making content accessible in a more engaging and respectful way.

Thank you for all of your feedback on the development of Mists of Pandaria Classic, and thanks for going on this journey with us. We can’t wait to see how you tackle the challenges ahead!

—The WoW Classic Team

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Huge W from blizzard

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Amazing news, thank you so much.

Inferno/protocol/twilight dungeons have been a fun way to gear up at the start of every patch, I was worried my guild would instead have to suffer through LFR’s hollow imitation of raiding.

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Amazing news, just thank you.

Catchup gear is still there, given in a 5man package following the very successful H+ model.

LFR is “optional” but people are “forced” to run it when it’s part of the upgrade path, who leaves free loot on the table (especially in todays gaming culture)

Aside from the very long discussion about the dissonance between a large group environment that is supposed to require a minimum of coordination instead masquerading as a solo activity, it would add greatly to raid burnout and ennui.

Even if you’re doing a “brainless” version just a few times, it’s still the same setting, the same “bosses” and environment; the quicker the boredom sets in.

Let us get the most value out of the raid content by not incentivizing us to repeat the same raid multiple times in the week.

Great change, kudos.

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Change so good that I had to double check if it’s really an official forum post and not some prank website. I kneel

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Also big kudos for whoever’s brainchild H+ is.

  • Bad luck protection organically built-in. You got lucky?, Get your gear as a drop. You got unlucky? Still get your gear with currency a couple runs later.
  • Different enough to M+ to be its own thing. Community managed speed. Answering the door/phone/taking a wee not a failure condition “built into” the mode.
    • Challenge modes are there for people that want speed rewarded and the two modes have their own lane.
    • No key depletion or other hate inducing punitive gameplay.
  • Keep all the 5mans relevant longer and touch them up so players have to do some mechanics, keeps them somewhat engaging.

It has downsides too (mostly player abuse of systems) but overall big win.
I’d class it along side Flex as one of the best ideas coming out of Blizzard for group content.

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Why can’t both systems exist? Celestials for people who don’t like or want to use LFR, LFR for people who don’t want to or can’t go into H+ dungeons. That seems like the kindest solution to the whole player base, imo :smiley:

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LFR is a terrible way to get gear so anyone who plays the game competitively does not like it. But it was a good introduction to the raid, a chance to practise your spec, and lastly it was good casual fun. You should have kept them but have each boss drop currency to buy LFR gear.

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Ok, I see that this thread is more quiet than US one and with people that welcome the change, so let me bring in a casual POV.
I was fantasizing about MoP Classic since Classic announcement (as MoP is my starting point in WoW), and later with TBC announcement I started to really looking forward to MoP Classic to recreate my journey as much as possible, to visit uncorrupted Vale of Eternal Blossoms once again, to experience raids in LFR once again and to maybe progress Legendary questline a bit further than did originally. It could happen that I would meet some similar casuals and form bond with them to try some content that didn’t touch originally, like challenge dungeons. And it was a set plan for this summer :slight_smile:
However, now, with this announcement, my dream came to ruin. By removing LFR and replacing it with something else entirely you kill Classic and make it something more like Season of Discovery. Adding new things is fine - hell, it would be cool to see some unfinished-earlier-but-implemented-now content in WoD Classic later - as long as it is additional content, not replacement. LFR was available in MoP from the beginning and, as you said, let a big chunk of player base to experience raids for the first time. And many of that same players would like to return now and populate servers again, but now they won’t.
For casuals LFR provide:

  • a fun new content which was not easily available for them earlier
  • a way to experience full story
  • a way to have more variance with group content - not running only dungeons again and again
  • a way to step into raids - without judging, without pressure, without wasting time applying to groups and being constantly declined due to objective or not-so-objective reasons (like demands to already have a particular boss kill experience, or even the full raid completion)
  • a way to find something they maybe love, overcome anxiety and decide to dedicate additional time to raiding and push higher, join team and move to Normals and higher
  • an opportunity to have more control over their playtime and not being bound to particular schedule - it is a big thing since most original players are adults with less time for gaming
    For more experienced players/raiders it is also an easier relaxing mode for when you want to have fun in the raid, but not try-hard progressing as you usually do with your regular team, or if you don’t want the same level of responsibility.
    So it’s not all about gear or difficulty, it is about accessibility of content for people who can’t put work to join Normals. Even if it takes same time to find LFR group and being accepted to pug Normal group, with LFR you can do other things while waiting for the queue. Celestial dungeons are just it - dungeons, they won’t provide the same experience as LFR, and it sounds as a “more difficult” content rather than “more easy” content, which vibes differently and caters to different category of players, even if difficulty between them is virtually the same. And yes, current Classic players will probably do ok without LFR, but it won’t bring new player base, casuals won’t suddenly start raiding if they didn’t do it in other Classics.
    For me personally, not including LFR is the same as not including Legendary questline, or not including daily quests, or dungeons, or any other content. Hell, I’m fine if LFR won’t give any gear at all - just bring it back, I love raids a lot more that dungeons T_T
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Basically you just want gear for free. We hear you. If you “loved Raids” alot more then dungeons then find a guild. Interact with people forge friendships struggle together and stop acting like a spoiled brat.

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Prolly because so far the pro-/anti LFR debate has been going on at the MOP development part of the forum.

Removing a core feature like LFR from MOP is a huge mistake imo.
It’s truly another “You think you do, but you don’t” moment.

Wasn’t this also the case with RDF in WOTLK Classic? At first it was not implemented, but was implemented later anyways with ICC patch since players were complaining that it wasn’t in the game like it was in OG WOTLK?
One can only hope that Blizzard will change their mind again.

LFR is a low barrier to entry feature in the game. So is RDF and random BGs. Are we removing those features too?

So do you. Is there any reason you should be getting raid gear from running a dungeon and not solely from raiding?

LFR was never about gear progression. The rng (loot) nature of LFR + personal loot made it not desirable for more min/max minded players. These players now have repeatable dungeon content to target the raid gear they want.
Why is it that players that are not playing with min/maxing their character in mind cant have LFR?

I see absolutely no good reason why both can’t be in the game.

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This cannot be called true on servers with low populations. The only activities that can be done is RDF because precisely there is matchmaking. Excluding an important feature like LFR cuts out new players, alts and those who want to play spec or non-meta classes for the fun of it. It cuts out a method of doing gear. Gear that could also be used inside Celestial Dungeons.

“Guilds” does not function as an argument. Anyone should have the opportunity to play at the pace they choose and at the times they want. Having a Static team does not always work all the more for those who join a guild now where the groups are already established.

Speaking personally on Pyrewood Village I have not seen in Group Finder a Raid in 8 months, so it begs the question: what raiding scene are you talking about? Because I see one scene and it is the silent scene.

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Thank you. LFR was one of the worst designs ever.
I love titanrune dungeons. :heart:

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Personally I’d be happy to have raid gear drop only from raids. Raid for the purposes of this discussion being a coordinated group of players with more members than a party with the goal of beating preset pve challenges, as opposed to a “hey let’s raid the enemy capital” free for all.

Have the casual guild, trade pug track be Normal > Normal (Tier+1) > Normal (Tier+2)
Have the progression guild, organized pug track be Normal > Heroic [> Mythic] > repeat for next tier
And the hardcore/speedrun/minmax track be Heroic > Heroic > Heroic/Mythic

But as it stands LFR gear was a part of the gear progression track (even for the hardcores because 4sets/trinket/legendary quest)

Now the classic team is correcting a historical mistake without breaking the gear progression scale.

Heroic+ modes are

  • bite sized content that can be completed swiftly
  • smaller sized and in RDF so you can both manually or semi manually run them at your own time, or even let “machine-daddy” form your group of strangers that you can treat like NPCs.
  • rewarding currency that can be converted to gear that’s even better than personal loot (because you can target smaller subsets of the loot table by instance / boss)

But oops there is one problem, you have to actually play the game and 5 man is harder to hide doing nothing than LFR.

So all that’s left is “but I want to experience the story”
Really? You want to experience the story in LFR? How many times do you want to experience the story?

Celestials cover and improve every single aspect a casual (in terms of time commitment) player would want for improving their character.
Piecemeal, easy to get in / get out / no guild or steady group commitment required.

Their only “issue” is they require slightly, marginally, just a smidge more engagement from the player while actually doing the activity, ie they are “harder” than LFR, you have to push a button here and there.

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I don’t understand people getting this level of upset over people wanting LFR. Why can’t everyone get what they want? People who want LFR have the option to do LFR, people who want to do H+ can have the option to do H+, and either party can choose themselves what they do and don’t want to do. Why is the idea of everyone getting a solution that makes them happy so bad? I think both ideas could co-exist perfectly fine

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Free gear is too enticing for players to just ignore.
There’s no free-er gear than a zero engagement “raid prop” (all the same environments, settings, boss “props”)

The “you don’t want to do it don’t” does not apply when the effort/reward ratio is so skewed.

Some group content will be sacrificed to the treadmill (repetition)
Is that sacrifice better to happen in content that is already designed to be repeated frequently (as evidenced by the absence of a lockout or very short daily lockout - which is also bypassed if you are willing to relinquish your player agency and let machine-daddy pick the 5man for you)

Or would you prefer to burn the by design slower paced consumption of big group content (as evidenced by weekly lockouts) by having people at nauseum keep pulling the “personal loot” slot machine.

Personally I prefer the “already highly repetitive” 5man be sacrificed to the loot gods, especially since they’re tweaking it “up” by adding mechanics for better loot and keeping it engaging.

Having both solves nothing on that front, does not lead to “choice” any more than the “don’t like it don’t do it” does, it just leads to foks running both and getting repetitive raid injury all the faster.

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I am extremely disappointed that there will be no LFR. That completely wipes the ability to raid off the table for me. I cannot commit to a guild schedule due to chronic illness and LFR allows me to participate in raids when I feel able to.

Even if I were able to time commit, finding a raiding guild for every person will be extremely difficult due to the low population of realms. Whilst I’m sure they will improve upon release, you cannot give everyone a raid spot.

Although the change to legendary questline and aquisition of gear in dungeons is more welcome, it does not change the fact you have essentially blocked raiding from the casual and some of the disabled community.

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To me it is such a strange attitude from Blizzard. We have a game ppl love to play, let’s remove options. Make it more narrow.
I dont wanna spend my game time trying to put a raid together. I just wanna do fun content with minimum effort. And i really don’t see the appeal of doing 6 Dungeons leveling through MoP. Doing the same 6 + 3 revamps heroics at lvl 90. Just to finish my gearing journey doing the same 9 heroic (plus something fancy).
I was really looking forward to the extra options LFR gives. To me it was a bawler move to implement an extra option with the fancy heroics but a huge lose for the game to remove options.

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Well said and on point. I agree with everything you said.

Just because a feature / option is in the game, doesn’t mean you are forced to do it. Its an option. But if you remove enough options…

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Thanks for the warning. I now know not to bother with MoP Classic.

But I’m sure the people who don’t understand an optional mode in a videogame is entirely optional will be happy so they can keep up with “muh prestige bruh… muh prestige”

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