What? Still salty from our other posts? 
I just wanted to add that blizzard already addressed this with target caps.
And it sucks. A LOT. Because now specs need 4 damage profiles instead of 2. So 4 buttons instead of 2. Greatly increasing the button bloat you hate so much.
It was such better when your abilities did ST or uncapped AoE.
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I am not diverting anything. This 3rd endgame pillar dosent exist in isolation. What happens in M+/Raids impacts you greatly. Because we share talent tree, gear, and tuning.
I wanted to simplify the problem. Tanks do what they do because they fit their roll in group content.
I can write whole pages about this. But what’s the point? You know it deep down as well as I do.
And mages have to fit their roll too. And that is why they get nerfed.
And so were healers by the way. We lost our kick. And with out it, we cant even complete 1 delve at the moment.
Why? Because according the blizzard its a problem in M+.
Of course You are diverting. And no, what happens in one endgame pillar doesn’t have to impact others.
I implore You to actually go and read my opening post carefully. You’ll find out they the thing that forced my decision (companion design) affects only the third pillar. I was going to give the mage a try with the announced class changes - it’s the design that forces me into melee (that only affects delves) that was the reason for this post.
And just as the design of delves was able to disrupt the balance in a way that created more disbalance, the design of delves could be used to provide balance. Without any impact on raids or M+.
Why should being high octave have to mean constant AoE? That’s just one way you can do something really fast. It’s a particularly logical way given how damage works, but it’s not the only way. There are many ways to skin a cat. Remember when rogue AoE stealth was a huge part of M+? Well, what if it wasn’t rogue AoE stealth but was clever combinations of CC? Or what if the wombo-combos could be resolved by just CC’ing enough of the wombo-combo-people to prevent it, then take the other part of the wombo-combo while still dealing with the rest of the pack?
That’s the power of single target CC and it has been completely annihilated by busted tanking and chain AoE CC’s.
That has got to be, by a HUGE way, the most stale meta in WoW. Sure it’s a lot of classes doing it by this point, but it’s… standard. So standard you’ve got it mixed up with what the game mode even is.
The game mode is a 5-man dungeon with a timer on it and a requirement to kill a fairly large subset of the mobs combined with a key that adds affixes to the dungeon to make it harder. That’s it. That’s what M+ is, it’s nothing else. Everything else is an emergence based on class and encounter design.
What… ? I mean firstly, arcane mage has two AoE CC’s, and secondly rets have one, too, and thirdly DK has several and they’re really strong and just so happen to stack everything into precisely one location for oh I don’t know what reason could be many things really hmm.
It’s true that it’s a set of comps each time, or even just one, but they all have the same basic strategy or win condition. In PvP you had rot comps, AoE comps, training comps, cleave comps, CC+assassinate comps, and so many other things.
M+ hasn’t had that for a long time. Everything just turns into tank tanks everything, pull it all on one spot, AoE disrupt it over and over again and it all dies. Sure, there are small differences to be found here or there, but this is generally what’s going on.
What’s viable depends on your level of play, as you note, but it’s certainly more than 1 comp unless you’re in the top 0.1% or higher.
Okay, well I decided to define it how Blizzard defined it.
Why is that a problem? The game used to have gauntlets where it was (supposed to be, isn’t anymore) a real challenge to push through; like a boss.
Make their current strategy actually impossible, that’s what I’m gonna do about it.
A high skill level doesn’t magically allow you to warp the rules of the game; it confines itself to the rules of the game to find a new strategy that’s really strong instead.
They did a really bad job. Tanks were OP, so the hit the DPS players by just making the tank have a hideously low skill cap, and then they didn’t even complete the job as well.
They identified the problem and fixed it the wrong way. Classic villain stuff, really 
Nonsense!
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MIDNIGHT IS A SLAP IN THE FACE.
If you can kill 1 thing really fast. The obvious conclusion is to take 10 dudes more and AoE them down.
Its not rocket science.
That is killing things 1 at a time. If those “casters” responsible for the combo wombos die really fast, then you take 10 and AoE them down.
Or … you give them a ton of HP. And now they are mini-bosses.
Ishayo. I swear that i am loosing my patience.
This NOT how M+ works. Try it please.
I was about to write a whole parragraph. But I wont.
Chain AoE CCs don’t kick. They just delay the cast. There are only TWO abilities that do that: Solar Beam and Sigil of Silence. Both of which have a 1 min CD. And none of the specs that have it are currently meta.
So. TODAY… the gameplay is not CC and AoE. Its prio damage + ST kicks.
Atleast play M+ before you talk about it.
Weekly tuning. That’s what is needed.
Or change dungeons weekly. But that is a worse option.
Yes. That is how you make things viable. Its what fights the meta.
You make “class encounter design” and that class would be instantly meta.
Arcane was meta because of Prio damage. A ST rotation.
And it was also the tankiest. With the best utility.
But overall, it did 20% less damage than DK frost, that does blanket AoE. However, thanks to Arcane prio damage bosses and minibosses melted. With out which high keys wouls be impossible.
And now, its BM hunter and Havok performing that roll.
Play M+ and then come back to tell me about it.
Because you are right. Easy content is overgeared by players and turned into a heroic dungeon.
However. People go bananas if blizzard takes away their myth track gear from +10… so it is what it is…
But that is not M+. That’s high keys. Lower keys are a nerfed out version of that for the masses.
Does it matter? What matters is what they make. The gameplay they create. They and you can call that however you want. I am pointing out observations. Not semantics on a defenition.
Play M+ if you like that. You got 40 min to get throughout the gauntlet. Or you die.
Ok. Do that.
If its impossible/ hard for them… its impossible for regular people.
Sure. Put your OP casters that cannot be CCd in any way. If pros can only tackle them 1 by 1 with care… regular people won’t be able to deal with that.
If you nerf it for “regular people” then its super easy for the pros. They pull 10 and AoE.
Please. Think about what you say.
What do tanks have to do with this?
Tanks can be gods. But if the party dosent survive then its all for nothing.
And tanks that behave like that, in high keys and low keys are just idiots.
It has nothing to do with the roll. But the player. It can happen with DDs and healers too. Idiots ate everywhere.
Midnight brings back Legion class design.
I’m so sad. It’s going to be such garbage…
Even now it’s odd how mage is good and then almost in weeks it’s nerfed to the ground even so that it becomes useless across it’s specs pvp. Now looking the list of abilities they prune in midnight I think its going to be rough.
But if we cant make auras it would be pretty hard to track displacement and the like what theyre removing. It will have half less tools to create distance than now and it will be odd stare hotbars and buff rows without auras.
They either make it boring to play and remove half its tricks it has up its sleeve or keep them and gameplay is awkward without auras and feel like staring hotbars and buffs I feel like.
Indeed. Let’s see what happens when we make that also 10 times more damage taken, make that matter, and turn this into a gross miscalculation 
You can pull a lot of other things that don’t contribute to the wombo-combo in the meantime
Endlessly. If you have enough of them. And they used to do that, oh my god the screams when that changed. Now people are used to it.
Well of course not, that’s the whole issue I’m highlighting. Why doesn’t it work like that? Because of your strategy.
I’ve had enough of this. I’ve had enough of hearing about raid frames, being insulted. I’ve had enough of being told I’ve never played a game I’ve played for 21 years, I’ve had enough of being misunderstood deliberately, I’ve had enough with mixing up metas and design goals, enough of arguments based on completely false information, circular arguments, quotewars.
You’ve lost your patience with me? Likewise.
I always somewhat rant about mage defensives because I do envy you a bit.
That said I feel you about Midnight. While they didn’t cut our defensives, they removed our self healing, so we have the durability of a cardbox then. I guess in a way, they make us caster weaker.
It’s still upsetting seeing melees and tanks just steamroll everything while you struggle with one or two mobs in world content. I only did the heroic tier in Lemix when I was 740 because I don’t want to deal with the pain during questing.
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No thanks i hate pet classes
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Yea, priests were universally considered among the weakest classes for delves in TWW. Personally I can’t imagine doing delves with a ranged DPS without a pet or the level of control brought by frost mage.
That’s why I won’t be even trying with the change to companion - if I’m forced into melee, then I’m gonna do it on an actual melee class.
Their idea of a ranged DPS seems to be a “glass cannon”, but the need for class balance makes it so that “cannon” part just isn’t there.
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With the greater focus on solo content in future WoW expansions you want to main a class that has a tank spec to be competitive. Pet classes are ok when they work, but some encounters just one shot even bm pets (Underpin comes to mind).
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Yea, when they announced Delves and the whole “World” endgame pillar I was hoping that if it would be successful, they’d address the disbalance between the difficulty various classes/specs experience in that type of content. I waited whole expansion for this. But with the change to delve companion that heavily favours melee classes it became blatantly obvious to me that they only care whether the content is doable or not. It doesn’t matter to them whether one class can clear the delve in 30 minutes, while it only takes the other 10 minutes - as long as it’s doable, everything’s fine in their books.
Well, not in mine. I’m tired of swimming against the current. I lost faith in things ever changing - time to go with the flow.
I vaguely remember Blizzard saying that they would balance delve encounters for each spec individually. But the only remaining trace from that seems to be the time between casts matching the kick cooldown for each spec. Some specs still just die to auto attacks because everything is tuned for tanks.
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So you propose to make dungeons 1 mini-boss caster and a bunch of mini things that dont do anything but white hits.
(A) Need an OP tank for that.
(B) It’s STILL AoE things down.
But you dont. Trust me.
You mention combo-wombos in your coments above. It would NOT be a problem if AoE CC was so good. Like in DF. In DF there were no combo-wombos, even though each trach pack had like 7 casters in it. But it was not a problem back then was it? In TWW 1 caster is a problem!
So why do you insist so much on this blanket AoE CC when it’s obviously not true.
No. Dont get me out of context. You do have some valid points I am interested in.
But giving ME lessons on how M+ works is not something that will end well. And I loose patience trying to kindly explain why you are wrong. But I should not have to justify the truth so many times…
AoE CC and DD is NOT the way M+ works today. It’s simply not true. And I already gave my reasons for that.
But I will give you a TLDR of the situation: M+ is the way it is. However, this season is easy. Which means, low key levels are easy. And when that happens, a +10 is more similar to a Heroic Dungeon. If you get what I mean.
So you play a +10 as if it was a heroic dungeon. You run in there, yolo everything and that’s it. But that is NOT how M+ works. It NEVER was. It just happens to be the way you do easy content. Just AoE everything down… It’s the way it’s been done since Vanilla. Nothing new !
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You could simply look at old WoW for inspiration.
In short, from WLK onwards WoW embraced bigger fights, at the expense of individually important things. Very similar to how LFR was working early on: nothing matters.
In Classic, packs were simply but presented some challenge - how to pull just enough, how to use line of sight, which one to control (sheep, sleep).
During BC, you can easily observe as early as the Ramparts - some packs cleave, some packs apply major healing debuff, and so on. Combined with the limits of each class, improper pulls would result in various aspects of party splat.
Once late in each expansion, (some) people have excessive gear which made them durable, survivable, able to take on more. During WLK, my tank paladin (this) more than doubled her health and with that, healing. My damage dealer comrades went from 1.5k to 12-15k dps.
So I’d simply invite you to play through Classic with just one character and observe what it did. The major difference is that Modern WoW does have its own challenging modes, but it’s less about chess and more about quick reactions. And quite a bit of sensory overload. Coupled with aging (we started WoW 20 years younger), it’s unlikely to get involved in both.
In classic there was no such thing as an infinitely scalable M+ system. That is like looking at cavemen huts as inspiration to build a 200 story skyscraper.
Let me remind you that before M+, dungeons were relevant the first month of the expansion. Then they spent the rest as “farming” for Valor. Literally ZugZug in 5 minutes to do the daily quest.
Is THAT the “inspiration” you are refering to? Because if that’s the case, it did not go away. it’s still there. Just run a Heroic Dungeon. 
With sheeps and whatnot.