A look at: Teldrassil and Theramore

Since it came up in the other Theramore topic, I was free for myself, to start another one, to take a closer perspective and compare those events. And the leaders that were in charge on both of the attacks.

Starting with Theramore:

We have this attack in a long list of actions and reactions going from Ashenvale to the Barrens, over Stonetalon mountains and reaching it’s pinnacle with the destruction of the city-state. In charge are:

  • Garrosh Hellscream, Warchief of the “true” horde, a former, rather broken man, with huge daddy usses that was looked down upon by all the other Mag’har in Garadar village and would have stayed like this, if it wasn’t for Thrall arriving pushing his ego witht the story about Grommash he told him. That story and Thrall’s advise worked wonders first, but it’s up for an open debate IF it was the right thing to do.

  • Malkorok. Pretty much the Blackrock-Orc version of Nathanos, only difference him being the chief of a secret police force too that straight up murders everyone, who even has the slightest of criticism against Garrosh to give(See the inn at Razor Hills being bombed into bits with grenades). Rather experienced fighter, but almost lost in direct combat against the personal body guard of Jaina called “Pained”.

The forces being up against in this scenario?

  • The united forces of the Horde, after Garrosh formed up a party big enough that could manage to attack such a well defended city as Theramore, with the help of Vol’jin and Baine, who first had to get dragged by Garrosh out of Mulgore, to do anything at all.

On the other side

  • The Alliance, represented by Theramore(lead by Jaina), reinforcements from Stormwind and the Night Elves(Lead by Marcus Jonathan and Shandris), a handful of High Elves(Vereesa ofc) and even some neutral parties, represented by Kirin Tor mages and a blue dragon. Whom only participated and were able to arrive in the brink of time after Baine sold out the Horde and told Jaina about the coming attack(Baine’s favorite thing to do, next to writing letters and gathering tea parties with at Anduin).

First of all, the attack was meant to go on in the old fashioned way like any other regular siege. But due to the presence of the Kirin Tor and Kalecgos that plan failed and the Horde forces retreated, leaving Baine(What a hypocrite) angry at Garrosh about his warriors dying for nothing(Dude you bailed them out and made it easier for the Alliance to kill them. Take a look in the mirror first). But was that really what happened? Nope. It is revealed, that Garrosh calculated on Baine being a hypocrite and snitching word to the Alliance, to gather as much enemy forces and all their generals in a single place.

Cruel, cold and unapologetic. That had been the plan of Garrosh from the very start of the siege. A single strike team(The Horde PCs) get into the city, freeing Thalen Songweaver in order for him to set up the big mana-bomb, infused with the Focusing Iris, stolen by Garrosh loyalists from the blue dragons. Nuke explodes and gets everyone and everything killed in the area, minus a handful of plot relevant characters(Vereesa, Shandris, Jaina and Kalec).

With Garrosh calculating getting such a high kill rate from the very start combined with the aftermath of events, followed by his regime orpressing everyone who isn’t an Orc(Racism) and, finally, him sucking up old god juice(Hypocritical since he hated fel magic for being too evil??), it is safe to say he was one of the worst, if not THE overall worst leader the Horde, and big parts of Azeroth, had to suffer from since the MU Gul’dan and Blackhand days.

Now let’s take a look at Teldrassil:

In Charge:

  • Sylvanas Windrunner(freshly appointed Warchief with a shady history, a tragic past and a traumata she suffered from after forcefully risen as undead and turned into a weapon against her own people by the Lich King(First Ner’zhul, later Arthas), who is actually respected for her “heroism” leading the Horde to victory against the Legion(quote by blizzard themselfs) and saving them from getting killed at the broken shore. From what pov you look at is, it is up for a discussion of much of things like Gilneas and the conquest of Lordaeron was her own doing, and what else was caused by Garrosh. We have conflicting sources here).

  • Nathanos Blightcaller. Pretty much the og version of Malkorok, with the difference of him having enough infamous “human potential” to not instantly die or get beaten up, when engaging in a duel with “insert alliance leader here”.

  • High Overlord Varok Saurfang. Veteran of many wars, hero for orcs and other Horde members alike, even tho it’s speculated, that the death of his son finally broke him, or at least damaged his soul enough to give him sorta one suicidal personality. Rgeardless, he is still a good tactician and even Varian respected him, when they encountered each other in the past.

How did the attack at Teldrassil work out? The plan was laid out on and, if you think about the usual strategy insert from Blizzard, well excuted, fooling the SI:7 even until the attack against the Night Elves was already in full swing. For some time Malfurion managed to solo the Horde forces when they entered Darkshore but he was caught by surprise, when Saurfang and reinforcements arrived from the north beyond the actual battlefield, from where the Shatterspear village is, so he was forced to retreit back to the coastlines for a final stand. The rest of the main army continues to advance further until Teldrassil is just an arrow shot away.

That’s where things get juicy.

It was NOT part of the original plan, to burn Teldrassil into a blazing husk. Sylvanas and some grunts engaged with Malfurion, in order to take him out and rob the Kaldorei of the leadership, to break their spirit, holding Teldrassil hostage and forcing Anduin into surrender by blockade Teldrassil, until eventual terms of surrender are fleshed out. Malfurion and Sylvanas go toe to toe with each other(going by the novella) and Saurfang throws his Axe, dealing a heavy blow that almost kills the Arch-Druid. Sylvanas leaves then the battlefield with a straight, clear order, to make Saurfang finish the job and joines up with the rest of the Horde.

BUT

Saurfang was stopped somehow(Elune divine intervention, “MUH HONOR”, or being too scared of Tyrande killing, him who knows), and the entire plan is thrown into the bin.

So here we are, the mentally damaged Elf Warchief, who get’s easily triggered, is left empty handed, because she knows(further confirmed in the alliance novella about Malfurion arriving in Stormwind brightens up the spirit of the Kaldorei refugees just by being there), and Nathanos who almost executes Saurfang on the spot, until Sylvanas tells him to stop, will now be the reason, why the Alliance most likley would NOT accept surrender anymore.

What to do then? Well. Let me present you Captain Delaryn Summermoon. The triggering plot device happens when Delaryn brings up the past of Sylvanas pre undead. And she talks about hope. You can’t kill hope. Not until they still have their future. Sylvanas thought about what was her hope? Her city. She sees Teldrassil. Well…

"Can’t I?"
"BURN IT!"

Conclusion of Teldrassil. While aiming with a high death toll aswell, in comparison of Theramore it was still not as bad because we have the Night Elves being left with an actual future(can’t say the same thing of Theramore), an Warchief who might be evil/shady and cold blooded, but isn’t irrational until getting triggered too hard, and an old senile Orc who sought his honor as tribal warrior more important than archieving the goals EVERYONE(himself included) agreed upon before the attack started.

Extra: Both events being war crimes, Theramore was still worse than Teldrassil. And Garrosh still more evil/worse than Sylvanas because he has no excuses for why he acted the way he did, being non-undead, not mentally unstable and not even knowing the alliance until he entered Azeroth for the first time. Yet he still went over the top regardless and included orpression and racism into his regime.

Thank you for your time reading dear community. I hope I am able to read some of your own thoughts.

6 Likes

Garrosh too had mental issues. Just because he was damned by undeath doesn’t mean that he didn’t suffer from them.

Thing is if you say that Sylvanas burned Teldrassil to break the spirit of the night elves, it was still a calculated decision, not a purely reactionary one.

Of course, this all matters if you believe the interpretation that Sylvanas had the right idea regarding psychological warfare against the kaldorei, and that killing one of their greatest leaders would have broken them. And do you actually think that the burning broke them? They’re still fighting in Darkshore.

And having an actual future doesn’t lessen the cruelty of the crime. Both are reprehensible but saying one crime is worse than the other is kind of foolish.
Is the Holocaust less reprehensible because a few Jews survived?

And here is a thing. It was a MIScalculated kneejerk-reaction. You don’t trigger a pained soul too hard and expect her not to react out of place. That’s what happened here.

I bet with you that any lawyer and court would disagree with that statement. Acting laws, even international ones, have many degrees of interpretation and default assumptions regarding any crime. Including mental instablity.

No. But the brown-shirts actually had the intention of ALL jews and “non aryans” dying in their camps. Sylvanas however is not out on a hunt of living things because of racial supremacy. If Anduin would “kneel before her” she would hand him over a list of demands of his surrender.

Then that raises a question, why is everyone willing to follow a leader who is mentally unstable, and from some quotes not having foresight regarding possible outcomes.

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: When I sent you on this mission, I did not foresee this outcome.

And Sylvanas wishes to destroy Stormwind and raise them as undead.

Because she immediately comes up with an explanation 5 seconds later and guilt talks the blame onto Saurfang’s shoulders. Also

points towards Vol’jin That guy was on drugs. But everyone took his word for serious business.

Then she adds the removal of humans from the kingdom of stormwind’s lands, on the list of the terms of surrender she just handed over to Anduin. Afterall, as stated in Before the Storm, she want to distribute that land towards the living horde races when victory is archieved.

It would be up to Anduin, hypothetically, make that demand possible.

Extra: Thing is, Blizzard makes it far too easy to excuse her behavior via the plot they laid down on their own here. And I am, almost, sure, that between 8.2 and 8.3 patches, something will happen to justify Sylvanas not dying when she goes full Kerrigan.

Wonder how much of that land will be livable with the forsaken’s current hard on for nuking everything with blight.

How does Sylvanas blaming Saurfang answer why the Horde is still willing to follow Sylvanas. Sylvanas ordered the burning and the Horde readily fired the catapults and the shamans gave wind to make the fires burn.

Genocides weren’t committed just in the case of racial superiority.

Yeah, Anduin would just clear out his kingdom just to make land for the Horde. That’s not really a demand the Alliance would accept.

What can they write to make her actions excusable? Make a possible flashback that the Alliance was going to raze all of Kalimdor and genocide the Horde? Or that somehow she, being undead, is necessary to seal N’zoth, when there are hunderds of others that can be used?

“Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you.”

-> Daelin Proudmoore

“Adding ‘new’ to the Horde’s name, doesn’t absolve you of your sins, you know.”
-> Uther the Lightbringer

It really doesn’t matter if it was done by Garrosh or Sylvanas, it’s just the same herd doing herd things like always.

4 Likes

You do realize we are talking about Anduin, right? Imagine a scenario where defeat is the only option for the Alliance(not the actual current story, just imagine it), and either annihilation or surrender remain. What do you think would happen? Anduin getting everyone killed in a final stand, or actually surrendering under accepted terms? He is simply not stubborn or ruthless enough to throw all chances into a final fight. Sylvanas already bailed on that attitude of him in Lordaeron during the confrontation cutscene. And it worked.

Sylvanas made it clear with the burning that there would be no surrender.

She had sent a message. This was not a war that would end in a stalemate. Not now. The Alliance and the Horde would both understand that the only choices were victory or death. Lok‐tar ogar.

Just the inner monologue of Saurfang. We all know Anduin will pick a more peaceful option if he get’s a chance for it, unless the Kaldorei would start their own thing but that’s not the topic here, he is like Baine but with a spine. I now will not answer for a few hours. Want to see who else responds here first.

It boils down to this, true. Sylvanas, as evil as she is, is someone horribly damaged and broken.

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And damaged people shouldn’t be obeyed at every command.

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Being undead isn’t a valid justification. There are many Undead who didn’t turn into genocidal maniacs and are actually decent people.

“Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you.”

Everyone shunned him as a madman. Only now, at the climax of a new world war, do they start to listen to his words.

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I surrender, but she still is damaged.

Yeah, my great grandfather actually remained very nice.

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True.
https://i.imgur.com/Y3oGxnr.jpg

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I’d argue that commiting genocide against a member of an alliance of nations sends a pretty clear message: that of total eradication of every member of that alliance

Don’t Katherine and Jaina both reject him as going too far by the end of the Thros storyline?

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What? Sorry, I can’t hear you over the cries of anguish of Derek Proudmoore. So much for “Forsaken free will”.

Katherine Proudmoore: You couldn’t save him… from himself.

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