It was Genocide?
with the tactical value of Riling up the Alliance to kill themselves at the UnderCity.
Attacking to soon and brash with no real plan.
But still bloody genocide, which is forshadowed in the Novel: a Good War by Sylvanas herself, she intended to burn down the tree from the very start yo.
She just escalated her plans after Malf’s survival.
Hey dont ask me! People pull things that amazes me!
It saddens me to see Sylvanas 180 degree reverse from WC3. She had pretty good motives to carry on. Now I just dont see how she came to Teldressil.
Theramore I can understand, Garrosh had motives to attack it, but Teldrassil was pure provocation for war and genocide of Civilians
The military purpose was to horrifie the Alliance and make them Launch unprepared Strike at the Undercity.
Which then meant Sylvanas only had to fortify the City Enough to make the use of the Blight effecient.
This newest version Allowing Sylvanas to raise the fallen as skeletons to end the Alliance once and for all as they would Launch an attack out of anger and Frustration, making them predictable and easy to Crush.
From a cold pragmatic point of view.
This would not just be effective, it would win the Horde the Entire War.
She’s at present trying to provoke the Alliance again and lure them.
On the Moral Scale it is just buttom Wrong.
She intended, originally, to kill Malfurion and occupy Teldrassil, using it as a hostage against the Alliance in order to gradually fragment them; divide and conquer basically.
With Malfurion alive, she concluded the victory would only make the Alliance more fearsome to deal with, so she decided to burn the tree instead, ironically only compounding matters.
As a result, she lost Undercity, and is now fighting a losing war against a unified Alliance
I… uh…
If your aim to invade was to get your own home turf utterly crushed on purpose so you can play with your new, shiny, city-bomb detonator was the intention all this time…
I’d lose faith even more.
By the way about Daelin - the guy is very hard to judge after what Orcs brought to Humans and High Elves during these two invasions. Can’t really see him as a Bad character, just very stubborn man.
He was an out and out hero. If anyone bothers to look at his history with the Horde he knows EXACTLY what they are about. If he was such a bad guy he would have wanted to genocide the orcs instead of putting them in camps…like what Greymane wanted and thus Gilneas left the Alliance. So when the Horde forms into an military force again…with leaders like Hellscream who attacked the Alliance right off the bat in Kalimdor anyone without total bias would see his reasoning was sound.
Initially yes.
But he also were caught in the past.
He refused to let go of it.
He didn’t believe in the possibility of the Orc’s changing.
He chose War granted justified.
But when peace was presented he Swayed it away.
He was a great Hero of the Alliance and his people, a great written Character that died as he lived: For Kul’tiras.
I mean, was he wrong to think the Orcs wouldn’t change? They don’t seem to act any different now to how they did in all the other wars. The only difference is now they apparently feel really bad about it, but boy they’ll do it anyway.
He wasn’t wrong at all. And as Warlords of Draenor proves, the orcs don’t even need the Legion’s nefarious influence to attempt to commit genocide. I will not deny that some orcs, like Thrall, did a lot of good for the planet, especially in Cataclysm, but let’s be real, the majority of the orcs are a bunch of self-entitled murderhobos.
We can argue that Daelin’s solution was extreme, but not that his ideals were ridiculous or unjustified.
For change to happen it needs to be encourage.
And I’d say the orcs have Changed.
They are a warrior Culture yes.
But their actions in BFA etc.
Is not something they do out of Personal joy.
They just simply follow the Chain of command like any Soldier would.
You wouldn’t see the common soldier in the Alliance go against the Chain of command apart from unique casses.
If they were ordered to burn down a Town of the Horde, we even saw how Brill was just demolished.
So, why is it different because the Orcs do it?
Because the Orcs commit genocide. The worst humans have done is put them in internment camps.
Slavery, torture,…
I mean, genocide is definetly bad. But the way you put ‘internment camps’ in such succinct way, is the equivalent of saying the worst orcs have done is kill many, many people.
Internment camps were terrible, but when the alternative was killing them all, it was the kinder option (still terrible, I must repeat). The difference is, the humans haven’t done this since. The other races in the Alliance have never committed deeds anywhere close to genocide (Draenei and Gnomes are spotless, Dwarves and Night Elves are a tad bellicose at worst, and the Worgen, for all their ferocity, haven’t really done anything especially heinous. Pandaren don’t count, they might as well not exist in faction lore lol)
The Orcs, meanwhile, have done this ad infinitum, never seeming to learn; and its something to say they’re just following orders, but eventually don’t you think they’d stand up and say ‘no’ if they’d actually learned from past mistakes?
Edit: tbh, the image of the entire or near-entire Orc faction in the Horde just straight up saying no to Sylvanas, to her face, is suddenly quite a strong story moment. Shame it’d never happen in a Blizzard game.
nothing that happen in those camps was any crueler then what they did do the draenei the orcs just like to cry foul when the same happens to them
Something that could have wholeheartedly been developed in Thrall’s charge. It was a working machine until it was given over to someone else, then stripped to give over to a potential light, and then given over -again- to someone worse.
I mean… I could think of a number of ways the Horde could have learned from its mistakes, but i’d like to ask a question in the same regard:
“How would you personally go on to develop this ‘New’ Horde vibe in a convincing manner?”
Obviously, you can’t just take the easy route - despite the plausible sensibility - and alienate an entire half of the playerbase of WoW, so…
Additionally, extra cookie points to those that make a good answer that does not involve the Alliance in any way, shape or form. Because we all know that’s just going to end up into another stupid discussion of comparing death counts.
Slavery, torture,…
I mean, genocide is definetly bad. But the way you put ‘internment camps’ in such succinct way, is the equivalent of saying the worst orcs have done is kill many, many people.
Not true. Sure that sort of thing did happen probably more often than the alliance would ever care to admit but that was NOT the intention of King Terenas Menethil who was merciful and beloved pf his people. Even the Forsaken honour his memory.
Here lies King Terenas Menethil II – Last True King of Lordaeron.
Great were his deeds – long was his reign – unthinkable was his death.
“May the Father lie blameless for the deeds of the son.
May the bloodied crown stay lost and forgotten.”
Terenas thought that if the orcs could be kept pacified long enough, they ought to eventually lose their lust for conquest, and as such he pleaded to keep them interned instead of executing them
Seems pretty noble to me.
Noble in the sense of him not understanding Orcs and was clinging on a hope he thought was going to work in the end. It was a noble goal that hinged on accomplishment through lack of knowledge with a biased point of view (Bloodthirsty Orcs)
And I can’t blame him.
But is it the best he could have done? No. Because even back then, there were efforts in trying to understand the Orcs.
turned out to be a giant waste of the alliance’s tax payer money and he should have simply listened to his allies like the high elves and graymane and went chop chop on the orcs
Lilura mentioned ‘humans’ in a broader term that encompassed them all as a whole species.
Regardless of Terenas intentions, the one in charge of said camps was Blackmoore. And the book Lord of Clans describes the kind of treatment orcs inside here had.
Killing them all might be considered worst, but the treatment they got while inside indeed included slavery and torture.
Not that hard.
A. Look at a good war.
If the Horde was portrayed this way through the current Expansion.
You wouldn’t have the Tone that they are “evul”
You would have a faction acting out of interests with an uncertainty of the opposition due to recent Actions.
You would Still have the Honorable Horde that fights for survival.
Simply making a move to secure a Strong holding in the Horde.
Now to Clarify the Horde has actually learned through the times especially the Orcs.
When Garrosh rose to power they followed him in the Start but by the end of the Rebellion most Orc’s stood up against their Tyranical ruler.
Do the Orcs need Redemption?
No, They are a warrior culture fighthing the enemy is not a crime.
Does Blizzard need to remember Mak’gora is a thing?
Bloody yes.