The system I suggest accounts for this friendly boosting. See the original post for the example. Just because you got a friend to boost you, for experience or for gear, doesn’t mean that you should automatically then have a high level Keystone which would be too high for your current item level and experience with your new character.
I am not mocking their views at all. But I do believe they are biased. Many of the things said in this thread by those players were based on them not understanding the Full original suggestion, which is why I edited the original post with bullet points.
They were assuming it would be bad for ‘key pushers’ because they believed that they would Have to run a dungeon 100+ times to get a maximum level Keystone. That would only be the case if they never used their own Keystones to initiate the Dungeon Challenge.
I admit I didn’t help them to see the suggestion clearly at first as I was unsure of their misinterpretation, as I cannot read minds.
I would like for those who misunderstood the Idea at first to go back and review the Original Post of this topic before they keep on insisting that it is a bad idea.
It is a very simple suggestion.
I am happy to take critical opinions on the suggestion, as long as the ones giving them actually grasp the full idea. Also, as long as they do not think that High Level Mythic Dungeons should only be Exclusively for small groups of friends, or members of particular sub communities. That is just biased.
Biased: adjective
unfairly prejudiced for or against someone or something.
The only way it would actually be bad for ‘key pushers’ is that it would result in them having more competition in getting their name onto the leader-boards.
to harden this point. i am a dota player for a very long time, most of the best upcoming players came just from solo grinding matchmaking, they were kids which spent their time climbing ladder and after they got noticed and invited into a team, and many times such players won the most important tournament of the season, sumail, topson, bulldog or if they don’t win the main tournament (the international) they perform very well in the season and win major tournaments. and that is possible just because they could solo grind and practice. and not listen to people who are telling them to get 5 friends and play with them. if you want to be good you need to grind, current wow system doesn’t allow this, period.
i actually like pugs you can meet different players and make new “friends”. and have nothing against closed parties. but even top wow m+ players just rotate players based on availability.
And why would a system choose for me the difficulty I should have ? I can choose myself fine. You want a system that “proves” someone deserve the current key just in case he want to play with randoms but:
Your own system can bypass that by hopping into someone else key, so you can fool it super easily already, so what’s the point ?
You can already see people who doesn’t deserve key: that’s called ilvl & rio. When you enter a group for a key you can look at people already in it. If you clearly see boosted people you have the option to leave.
Are you putting on the system fault the fact that you depleted a +13 key because the key holder was clearly boosted ? (your example)
What you think hinder your progression is keystone downgrading in pug. If you suggest a system, you should leave it as simple as that: make key not deplete the first X time you fail them for example, or make some limited rerolling system for key (which we will potential have in the next patch).
To me what hinder your progression is that fact that content is challenging yet you don’t aknowledge that & you want to bruteforce it.
You seems to believe that more practice will make the overall M+ playerbase better. That’s just false, it will makes terrible players still terrible & good players will remains good. Key are opened all the time people don’t have issue practicing. You won’t have too if you hopped more into people key if you don’t like yours (one time in a boosted key makes hardly for a norm sorry).
No system will makes the playerbase overall better. What can makes the playerbase worse is welfare gear: because people will overgear content that is supposed to be of their skill level & will learn nothing from it, then will get shredded in higher difficulty. (But this is a bit off topic).
I don’t see how practice will improve you if you want to bruteforce (e.g. no communication anyways). Yes you will get better & better with your rotation but the 1-2% extra dps you gonna shave off won’t matter that much. Even if you perfectly control mobs with your CC & kick alone you only have 1 15sec kick, 1 mn CD stun & 1 15sec grip anyways. There is a point where practice without communication & coordinations between the group players is pointless.
Are you guys blind ? Open the groupe finder you see people open +20 & more all the time of the LFG. Those are very high key so where is the bias ? What is denied to the playerbase ?
if you don’t complete this key in time it’s gone thats the problem, lol. i queue for a 19/20 and players want to have a player who already did it or preferably already did a 21. and i totally understand why, they want to minimize the chance key gets depleted.
i already wrote all this here M+ Keystones obsolete system
if you would be able freely to choose the key and play it, i wouldn’t write anything on this forum. my only problem is the gating which is created by the keys.
i was playing +12 dudes wrote to me this now i have only 19 sanguine left and will play 20 keys (if i can get into some lol), the real thing that gates me is the queue/keys available. after i will cap on my skill and have no problems with that. but all this time i was capped mostly by the queue. sorry what i have analytical skills and can see the bottleneck.
From what I read, the new NPC at the end of a timed dungeon will only allow players to trade their Keystone for another Keystone. The Keystone which was used to initiate the Dungeon Challenge will not be able to be traded.
That’s about all there is to it. Hardly an improvement.
You keep saying that the system I suggest is too complicated.
The system I suggest is just as simple as the current system. Hey, now that I have formatted the suggestion with bullet points, why don’t we write bullet points for the current system? I bet we will see that there are roughly the same amount of points to explain how it works.
The Current system:
The Keystone takes up a space in your Bag. It cannot be deleted!
You acquire a Keystone from completing a Mythic Dungeon.
The Keystone you get will be randomised.
At the end of the week your Keystone will be removed from your bag and you get it back from the Vault in the bank. (possibly with an upgraded level, depending on your highest completed dungeon on the previous week).
Completing a dungeon ‘in-time’ will upgrade the Keystone to a higher level, based on the completion time. 1 to 3 levels can be gained.
Completing a dungeon ‘over-time’ will give you a different Keystone 1 level lower than the Keystone which was used to initiate the dungeon challenge.
If someone, for any reason at all, decides to quit the dungeon then the Keystone that was used to initiate the dungeon challenge will lose a level.
7 Points.
Now my suggested system:
On the character’s Inventory or Bags, there should be a Keyring for Mythic Keystones.
Mythic Keystones should be acquired from killing a World Boss which resides outside of or roams around near the entrance to the Dungeon. A Dungeon Keeper NPC.
The Keystone only needs to be acquired one time for each character & each dungeon and it is for keeps. (Permanent, one for each dungeon).
Each individual Mythic Keystone should have an XP level which progresses when the dungeon is completed. Perhaps with 10 points to each level, (which could be styled like runes on an interface).
If someone wants to rub a level off of their Keystone, they should visit an NPC/Vendor and pay to downgrade their Keystone. Likewise if someone wishes to Cap their Keystone at a certain level, they should visit the NPC/Vendor to apply a level-cap.
When a character completes a dungeon using their own Keystone, in-time, then it should level up to the next level.
When a character completes a dungeon using someone else’s Keystone, in-time, then their own Keystone for that particular dungeon should gain XP towards it’s level.
When a dungeon is completed over-time or disbanded before completion, then the Keystones of the players in the group should gain NO XP, but the Keystones should not lose anything.
Ooooo, 8 points. Damn, I guess I should not have thrown in the Idea of having to get Keystones from World Bosses and keeping them on a Keyring. Yep, definitely too complicated. Let’s scrap the bit about the world boss. Will that satisfy you?
What hinders my progress, and the progress of Many others is that Keystones lose levels and get randomised.
If you want to call it “brute forcing” a dungeon, to actually be able to play it as much as you like until you are able to complete it and move on to the next level… Do you also call it brute forcing when you level up your character or move on to the next level in any other game?
It isn’t called “brute forcing” it is called forward facing progress.
O, so you believe that if someone is bad at something, then they should just quit and not bother to try to improve, because no amount of practice could ever make them better at something?
What?
Thanks, I read your post there.
I see your suggestion was made for pretty much the same reasons as lead me to make this suggestion.
You do realize that if key weren’t depleting at all the whole higher scene would be “Full evening of try TOP+21 (for example)” where you would be banging your head over & over again against whatever is the wall in this keystone.
Yes at first that will shift your overall best keys by a few level (maybe). But there will be another point where you are stuck anyways. Then at best you will be spending your whole day trying to do the same super risky strategy to try to get the 1% chance the keystone pass (when you find a group willing to do that yet remains pure pug for whatever reasons).
Overall That’s possible, that was they are doing in tournament realm basically, but I understand that this is not really an engaging gameplay for the majority of the playerbase so they “force” people into playing all dungeons & drop difficulty as penalty so it looks like a MMO and not a tournament.
Should they open up a tournament realm ? maybe … but if you are so interested into tournament mode maybe you should find like minded players.
I am nowhere invalidating my own statement, I want to be able to choose the difficulty to start on from my point of vue, if i misjudge & deplete, that’s on me. If you think I don’t deserve to be here then just leave my group. Nothing is hidden & no one “forces” you to stay in someone group. if you are displeased then leave (but please do your choice before the keystone is running as an act of politness).
You can have 4 bags for 30 slots for cheap + backpack + full bank. The legion artifacts you cannot delete takes more space than your keystone. Why is it in a pros/cons ? This is irrelevant.
You always get either the same level of your higher key last week if you timed it or 1 level below if you haven’t. Key from the vault are never above what you already done.
Technically nothing happens if someone leave, the same rules are applied if you either time, deplete or leave the dungeon. I have timed keys with 4 people at the end because some random prick DCed forever it still upgraded my key.
This is utterly pointless grind, make your thing drop either from M0 or the first time you complete M+. Imagine getting all keyring for 10+ chars…
Pay for something that should be free, you should work at Blizzard :D. You should be able to choose a lower level at start if you wish (like a slide bar). You grinded the difficulty, you shouldn’t have to pay or be penalized for that
The rest of the points are basically: you need to grind levels up from the key by doing it multiples times but you can start over at will + you can choose which dungeon you want to run at will.
grind: No thanks, game is already grindy as it is, I don’t need another system to prove to randoms pug that I am capable, more covenient tool exists already, use them. I maintain that just the part “start over at will” is fine.
choose which dungeon: This is anti RPG, it has a lot of good sides, but as I said it will makes crowd runs only the easiest dungeons for rewards & will makes others dungeons deserted. This is a design choice. I understand why keys are randomized while I personnaly would have benefits it is not.
You progress by trying, not necessarily succeeding. You progress throught the whole M+ environment so key randomised is hardly an issue (you just progress another dungeon). And you also still practice by doing slightly easier content than not at all (it’s not like after depleting a +14 you get a +2, they are 10% weaker not 50+%).
You can use someone else key, which is a point you just ignore all the time: if you REALLY wants to do an HoA+14 you can always wait for one & apply.
I call brute forcing content trying do a challenging content whithout communication or coordination & just rellying on stats from your char to “soak” whatever was missed & kill things before they go too much out of control.
The harder the content you do, the lesser this is possible. Practicing implies teamwork at this point.
No, practice will makes you, as individual, better (up to a certain point).
But what is offered to the playerbase is not practice, it is more opportunity to practice. There will remains people who are bad because they don’t bother practicing or fail to learn what makes them bad. And there will remains people who are good because they didn’t needed opportunity, they practiced already.
I admit my first paragraph wasn’t very clear.
the point is if you really into m+ you play it just because you want to bang your head and be able to play it like a session based game not a MMO. thats why i wrote what WoW is a ballast for M+ development. M+ is awesome but basically has less to do with MMO. it’s another mindset. it’s about grind and getting higher score (getting better). RIO is the best thing happened to it. without it it would be a total mess.
Maybe they could open a tournament realm 100% where you won’t have to bother about gearing or key & you just try to push as much as possible.
If I were them, the main issue would probably be attendance & commitment in the long run.
But here will be very soon a tournament where rules will be more or less that, we will have the opportunity to look at what a system like this looks.
You seem to think that I must be a bad player and that I have reached the threshold of my skill level.
Quite the contrary.
You also seem to think that once a player has reached their skill level, that they would not be able to accept that and just keep “bashing their face” against a wall.
I have yet to reach my skill level. People do not accept me into their groups at this point. Regardless of the fact I am applying to join as a tank. They want a “meta” tank. They want me to have already completed the dungeon 2 levels higher than their current Keystone level. If I have completed it 2 levels higher then I get accepted. Being accepted to anything higher than the level which I have already completed is a very rare thing.
During my time playing Mythic dungeons, my skill with the Blood Death Knight has increased a lot. Buying an MMO Gaming Mouse also made things slightly easier.
There are not many players in the game right now. A lot of players have simply stopped playing. So it seems impossible to go any further using my own Keystone too. The majority of times I make a group with my own Keystone, it is losing a level. You like to insist that this is my fault and that I should have found better players for the groups, but I am only 1 out of 5 players in the group. There are not many players around to choose from. Fewer by the day.
Therefore, the current system with Keystones which lose levels is hindering my progress.
It is one step forward and 5 steps backwards. This is not a forward facing progress system.
I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say here. But I think you misunderstood me also.
Well I would except they only recruit people who have a University Degree. I am more of an Autodidact. I once pointed out to a GM in a ticket that “in order for me to get a job at Blizzard, they would have to recommend me for a position.”
The GM thought that I was telling him what to do and threatened to ban me, and angrily closed the ticket, with a permanent warning applied to my account. I appealed this action and my appeal was declined.
By giving you a few XP points on your low key? LOL That isn’t how it works. One of the benefits of boosting is getting the low geared character a higher key of their own. This is because none of us wants to ‘waste’ our keys on boosting a low geared character (and typically is the reason why we do it - when we do - just before reset). Under the current system, the boosted character gets a key of their own that friends can then help them with. No-one has to sacrifice their own key (which they likely want to try to push) on boosting someone. So, no, your idea doesn’t account for friends boosting each other.
Of course they are, and so are you. They (mostly) like the current system, you (mostly) hate it.
It’s awesome. It means (for example) that someone trying to get KSM who upgrades their +14 to a +15 of a dungeon they have already timed at that level can exchange it for a different +15. It gives a second chance for the random key to be one they still need.
My first thought as well. I mean, my bags contain 3 hearthstones, flightmasters whistle, auto-hammers, drums, flasks, oils, augment runes, combat and health pots, stat food and basic food, alternative gear pieces (especially on classes I multispec), any quest items I happen to be carrying, and … OMG, there’s that one slot taken up by my mythic keystone.
Same. We’ve even kicked a toxic person and gone on to time and upgrade the key with 4 people.
This is nonsense. Even at 3am, there are plenty of dps to choose from. Healers are a little thinner on the ground, but you seem to play with a regular healer, and the dps flock in once the group has tank and healer already signed up.
But it does, because you would not have to make any sacrifice to boost them. You can just keep running your higher Keystone. Theirs will level up accordingly with their Item Level. You are not boosting them to get them a Keystone, you are boosting them to get them Items. They are not going to get a full suit of high level armour from 1 dungeon run, therefore they would not need a high level Keystone after 1 dungeon run either.
I don’t “hate it”. I have just reached a point where it is totally holding me back and stopping me from progressing further. So I suggest the system be changed.
This guy is doing +19, you are doing +13. when I was doing this example I was nowhere refering you, it is just that to time such high key you need to do crazy strat. If key didn’t deplete you would need to do them & they would need to be perfect (or you just restart because you won’t have time to recover).
For example in TOP, you can shave a solid minute in high key by doing the first two champions in the Xav part together, but this super risky.
In high key many many mechanic oneshot you outright, so any slight mistake is just instant wipe.
You don’t experience thoses mechanic in lower key because you don’t die & the healer can stabilize after (because there is no dmg input after).
Honestly you should just apply more & if you like the people you played with, try to do another one with them. There is a constant shortage of tanks people will be more willing to accept you than if you were a DPS. you could also try to push a bit with your Hpal friend to reach Rio treshold.
off topic but please GM are not Blizzard lapdogs, they are people like you & me who have a job & want to be paid. You don’t have to shove them all your hate towards whatever system the game has. If they can’t help you it’s company policy it’s not their personal fault. If you have a ticket stays relevant & polite, they are humans too.
I have wasted a lot of time applying for dungeons. People are not accepting a late to progress, non-meta tank.
Also, on the off-topic note, I didn’t indicate what the ticket was about, it wasn’t about Keystones. I didn’t shove any hate towards the GMs I spoke to. I was just saying.
Ah, yes. I keep forgetting that the keystone never loses a level in your fantasy.
And that’s the reason why the whole idea is so bad. A lot of the fun of running keystones is that there’s both risk and the potential for reward. Take away the risk and you strip most of the pleasure out of it. Rewards alone get very boring after a short time.
rofl if you are some kind of masochist, maybe. it’s just hard to time higher keys because you need to perform very well as a group. don’t judge from a viewpoint of +10 facerolling where you can do tons of mistakes and still time it.
everytime (well almost), you time a higher key, you kind a think “wow what a nice group we played well” and has nothing to do what you can get punished you are just happy about the positive outcome and not about the avoiding the negative.
If you really can’t stand people not accepting then my last resort suggestion is to swap to the meta. ( My real suggestion is to play with people that don’t care but …)
However the warrior guy responding is war prot (which is super off meta since SL) with an impressive score for this season so tbh even off meta you can push pretty hard if you really want to.
Offtopic again:
And I didn’t accuse you of anything about GM. I have as only context the sentence you told him. Which I think is at best unecessary, at worst very annoying for the GM itself (as a person).
Imagine you are a supermarket cashier & 1 every 10 person would brag how much your company is terrible and they should be the one in charge, blablabla. You see how annoying it is after a time ?
So next time I suggest you stick to your problem so they can solve it ASAP & that’s it.
It’s a guestion of point of vue, to me the slap in the face is more the time wasted + the exhaustion from a garbage toxic players (because that is usually the root of depletion in my scenario). Keys are volatile anyways, you can use someone else key & you just need to time 1 key per week at a desirable level to get another shot the week after.
Well the thing is, when I create something, like a 3D model or other game asset for example… I show it to people, and most of them say “wow that’s great, really impressive! Good Work!”
Then I have to keep on showing it to more and more people until I find someone who will actually give me some critical feedback about it, so that I can make improvements to it and move on to the next iteration of the works.
But I come to these forums to suggest a new system for a part of this game… I didn’t just suggest to remove the part I don’t like, but thought of a whole new system which would work and could be balanced to make things better for a lot of players, whilst not hindering others…
And the majority of people are just giving critical feedback, without actually thinking about the whole of what is being suggested or the reasons for it being suggested.
The others just keep saying this “Get some friends” thing.