A new improved system for Mythic Keystones!

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

People are implying that I am bad, or worse than them at the game, and using their level of experience as a ticket to say that their opinion counts more.

And when they are doing that to snub the suggestion, it says something.

It says that there is something which they do not like about the suggestion which they are not speaking about.

We discovered what that was. People don’t want to have to do the same dungeon a number of times in order to gain 1 level on it.

The thing is though, if Blizzard made Keystones not lose any levels, then there would have to be some kind of sacrificial payoff to account for that. That being XP points which means you have to complete the same dungeon a number of times before your Keystone gained a level.

I refer back to this post…

@Psjohly-argent-dawn

@Ronjambö-nagrand

I mean the dungeon, not the level.

Is that relevant? 100 times or so? A +15 is not so comparable with a +19 though.
With your rules i would have been at +10 instead of +19 now

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Yes it is relevant. You have done the dungeon 100 times or so, and you have only just completed your 19.

Lets say for example, you were running with your regular group and timing dungeons well. With 2 points of XP to your Keystone each run. So you are running a dungeon 5 times per level…

5*20=100.

So with the suggested Keystone system, you would be completing that level 20 dungeon within the same amount of total runs on that dungeon as you have managed to under the current system.

Or as we went on to say, maybe just 5 points of XP to each level. It would be less of a grind than the current system if not balanced correctly, it is the concept I am trying to show here.

For those who have a set team to run with, 100 runs total to reach a level 20 Keystone for a dungeon might seem reasonable.

Imagine trying to climb that gate without a set team. This is why people pay for boosts, to try and get accepted into guilds and teams. I refuse to go down the road of paying for boosts. Many others refuse to go down that route too.

Lots of players would rather not join communities (even blizzard communities Psjoly).

This doesn’t mean that progressing to the higher levels should be impossible to them. Some people argue that it simply is impossible because they personally have to use voice communications to achieve such things. I argue back at that and say that with practice you would not need the voice coms.

If I came along here and said “Blizzard, just remove the function which makes Keystones lose a level”. And that was the depth of my suggestion, would anyone take that seriously at all? No. That is a bad suggestion, with no thought to it.

From a games developer point of view, I see that there must be a price to pay in order for Keystones to be made to not lose a level. That is why I suggest that Keystones have XP points.

It is a concept. IF it ever were to be implemented in the game to any degree then it would need to be tested and balanced in order for it to not be “more of a grind” than the current system. Of course.

[Alleyâh-khaz-modan]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

For those who have a set team to run with, 100 runs total to reach a level 20 Keystone for a dungeon might seem reasonable.

I assure you that you can run a dungeon 1000 times in a lower difficulty yet be absolutely unable to do it on a higher difficulty. Look at Naowh/Gingi/etc… (MDI top team & among the best key pusher) key for Necrotic Wake for example & compare it to yours. They are just not playing the game at the same pace, you could do the dungeon 1000 times & still fails to do what they achieve to pull off.

@Ronjambö-nagrand

This doesn’t mean that progressing to the higher levels should be impossible to them. Some people argue that it simply is impossible because they personally have to use voice communications to achieve such things. I argue back at that and say that with practice you would not need the voice coms.

Progression passing a certain point isn’t possible without voice comms, that’s the hard truth. In the higher difficulty so much mechanic requires a lot of finesse to pull off that it is just not doable without perfect coordination from everyone.
The easiest example would be CD management for stress healing phase, if you don’t communicate with your healer when you are using your personal CD and when he is using his, you will not survive some encounter (third boss of Sanguine for example, or Stradama in PF). This is not practice, this is communication.
To counterbalance this issue, pug usually take safer route, safer pulls to reduces the necessity of coordination. But at some point it is just not viable anymore.
Some people however do go quite high with pugs, but the highest level pugs implies a lot of preplanned coordination before key (route, kick, CC, whatever) and usage of high level pug strat (usually pull multiple packs to shave time). But even the best pug go way under what the key pusher manages to pull off.

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Imagine trying to climb that gate without a set team. This is why people pay for boosts, to try and get accepted into guilds and teams. I refuse to go down the road of paying for boosts. Many others refuse to go down that route too.

People buy boosts for a lot of differents reasons, some to be accepted into pugs for weekly level keys ( but they are obviously spotted because they have no progression), but most of them are just here for the vault & that’s it.
Almost nobody will pay a boost to be accepted into a guild or team, you want to boost yourself to fool people that you won’t see long anyways so they won’t catch. ( or for others reasons, but never to be accepted for a long term commitment)

And weekly +14 & KSM are accessible without boosting. Of course if you decides to play a non desirable spec and a non desirable role (such as enh shaman or survival hunter for example) while still wanting to do 100% pug without finding contact, you are going for a rough ride but you should know it. People will go for the least resistance path, that’s why a meta will always exists, if you want to play off meta then it’s up to you but don’t expect flowers from random.

And well yes, there should be a downside to failing a key to avoid people wishing for a run to fail (other than pure spite or indifference to the others person investment in the key).

Right now it is the systematic downgrading of key that do this purpose.

There could be a system where you have a “failsafe” (like key charge) where the first deplete doesn’t count. But that would still create scenario were people would want a run to fail (to still have the key available for another run) or assuming finishing the dungeon overtime would grant the same key/same dungeon, people that wished to be done with the dungeon & go to the next would be having the exact same key & need to redo.

[Daestra-turalyon]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

The thing is though, if Blizzard made Keystones not lose any levels, then there would have to be some kind of sacrificial payoff to account for that

Your suggestion is bad simple as that as grinding XP for keys is not needed people have done 20’s of the same dungeon time and time again and forcing them to do the same dungeon over and over before being able to pick another is just bad .

@Ronjambö-nagrand

And when they are doing that to snub the suggestion, it says something.

It says you are not willing to listen to others and complain about how the speak or there views you just do not listen .

The thrill of keys is for it to be

random
hard
time
with friends
thought provoking

Not another XP grind .
I am sorry but your idea is bad and not an improvement at all and how you have the audacity to say a 20 is just about item level and not much different when you have no experince then tell others to shut up when they do not agree with you that’s narrowminded and rude .

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

I assure you that you can run a dungeon 1000 times in a lower difficulty yet be absolutely unable to do it on a higher difficulty.

What I suggest would allow people to not have to do the dungeon 1000 times on a lower level unless they choose to. As their Keystones would be levelling up. If you did a Keystone 1000 times you should have by that point reached a maximum level with it, (way before that point).

What you say about set groups with voice coms Vs PUGs, shows my point. You can reach higher levels without voice coms if you talk about strats before you start, and have enough experience.

Reaching a higher level Vs being condemned to lower level by popular opinion or demand. You would progress further in PUGs with the system I suggest. Is that a scary thought to set groupers? The thought that PUGs might be more fun? Would it take something away from your prestige?

To your thoughts about why people pay for boosts… I have met plenty of players over the years who’s sole reason for paying for boosts is to be accepted into guilds & groups. I don’t see why someone would pay for a boost for level 15 dungeons or higher, just for something in the weekly chest/vault. Especially since completing it on anything higher than level 14 pays nothing extra. They could get into at least 1 level 14 run per week I suppose.

But 1 group per week is no form of real progress for someone who wants to put more time into the game.

@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

And well yes, there should be a downside to failing a key to avoid people wishing for a run to fail (other than pure spite or indifference to the others person investment in the key).

The problem is that this current downside only affects 1 person in a group. People quit dungeons a lot. If you think (as some have said) it is a 50/50 thing on timing a dungeon or not… Forget your comfort zone of set groups for a moment and think also, in a PUG scenario, it is a 50/50 thing on if someone will just randomly quit the group or not. This means that your chances of completing the run in time are greatly reduced.

1 person out of 5 should not be punished for someone else deciding to quit the group for whatever reason. Neither should they be the one with a sad face if the dungeon didn’t get completed in time.

Nobody should be feeling bad or apologising for dungeons over-time.

The downside to failing is that you failed, you spend your gold for buffs, your time which could range up to an hour for making the group and attempting the dungeon.

When someone quits a dungeon, because they believe that their time is more important than anybody else’s. They didn’t want to complete the dungeon 5 or 10 minutes over-time for example… They waste an hour of 4 other people’s time. So they waste 4 hours total of other peoples’ time for a sake of 10 minutes of their own time. How is that acceptable? They face no consequences at all for this. Someone else takes the punishment for this.

This happens to a point where it greatly hinders the progress of others, who might otherwise be joining the ranks of those at the top of the leader-boards.

That isn’t a downside, it is a massive slap in the face!

@Daestra-turalyon

Your suggestion is bad simple as that as grinding XP for keys is not needed people have done 20’s of the same dungeon time and time again and forcing them to do the same dungeon over and over before being able to pick another is just bad .

Did you even read the suggestion, or did you not understand it?

The suggestion is that everyone would have a permanent Keystone for each dungeon. One for each dungeon. Giving them the freedom to choose to do whatever dungeon they like, whenever they like. Nobody would have to finish a dungeon on max level before they get a different keystone, not sure how you got to thinking that. So it is a bit ironic that your next line of text was implying that I do not “listen to” (read) what other people are saying.

---

I have edited the original post with bullet points to make my suggestion more clear for you and for others.

• Please read it again before you come to say again that it is a bad idea. Thanks.

@Ronjambö-nagrand

• When a character completes a dungeon using their own Keystone, in-time, then it should level up to the next level.
• When a character completes a dungeon using someone else’s Keystone, in-time, then their own Keystone for that particular dungeon should gain XP towards it’s level.
• When a dungeon is completed over-time or disbanded before completion, then the Keystones of the players in the group should gain NO XP, but the Keystones should not lose anything.

I think several people here overlooked these three points.

[Tyssera-argent-dawn]

What happens next week, OP? Under the current system, if my own key is level 5, but I join someone else’s key and time a 15, next week I get a 15 in the vault. What happens under your system?

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

Well, you wouldn’t lose levels off the Keystones you have, so you would not need to get a Keystone in the vault.

Getting a Keystone in the vault which matches to your highest level dungeon completed, serves to supplement and compensate for the loss of levels that occurs.

So maybe Blizzard would like to add some other kind of reward, if any. Maybe some XP or levels to the Keystone you have for that dungeon.

Maybe a new quest that offers a reward if someone completes every dungeon at least 1 time per week.

What would you suggest for the vault?

[Tyssera-argent-dawn]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

What would you suggest for the vault?

I don’t need to make suggestions, since it isn’t my idea.

I do, however, think not getting a keystone in the vault - the only fun thing left about opening it on Wednesdays once you’ve reached the point where you rarely get gear upgrades - would be another sad thing about this system.

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

You know it is funny.

Most of the things people have said they don’t like about the idea, really are not that bad at all, or they misunderstood the original suggestion.

I edited the original post, didn’t add anything to it, just broke it down into bullet points…

Now it is more clear, I don’t see anyone saying “o, i was wrong about that part, it is a good idea after-all” or just that they were wrong.

But now, you come saying that you actually find it fun to get the Keystone taking up a spot in your inventory? All that is happening when you go to the vault is that the Keystone has had it’s level restored. You are not winning or gaining anything, just getting a few levels back which should already be there in the first place.

I find it ironically funny, no offence.

[Tyssera-argent-dawn]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Now it is more clear, I don’t see anyone saying “o, i was wrong about that part, it is a good idea after-all” or just that they were wrong.

Maybe that’s because they did understand what you were saying and just don’t like your idea. I understood and I think it’s a horrible idea. It would make a fun activity into just another grind. If I wanted grind, I’d play Classic.

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

hardly, when people took the XP part of it and insisted it would be bad for “key pushers” and dragged on about how many times they would have to run a dungeon to gain xp for levels,

because they missed the part where it says

@Ronjambö-nagrand

When a character completes a dungeon using their own Keystone, in-time, then it should level up to the next level.

either they didn’t read it or they got so far in reading it that they found something to make a fuss over, like you making a fuss over not getting a Keystone from the vault when you already had one anyway…

It is a good concept, if people care to admit it or not. Not blowing a trumpet, just if it was actually a bad idea then i never would have bought it to the forums.

[Tyssera-argent-dawn]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

either they didn’t read it or they got so far in reading it that they found something to make a fuss over, like you making a fuss over not getting a Keystone from the vault when you already had one anyway…

How is being stuck with a +5 when I should have had a +15 (based on the dungeon I timed last week) something I should be satisfied with?

@Ronjambö-nagrand

It is a good concept, if people care to admit it or not. Not blowing a trumpet, just if it was actually a bad idea then i never would have bought it to the forums.

Just because you think your idea is good doesn’t mean people have to agree with you.

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

how is being stuck with a level 10 Keystone something to be satisfied with, when you started the week with a level 14 Keystone, before you went to the effort to make groups and give people a chance? Hmm?

you are picking at stitches and hanging off of the one downside whilst totally avoiding the good parts.

Like I said, in order for Keystones to not lose levels some kind of sacrificial payoff must be made. It is to maintain a balance.

But in reality, if you only had a level 5 Keystone for a dungeon that you completed on level 15, then you probably got boosted if that was the case. With this system, if you are as skilled as you say you are… then you would have a level 15 Keystone or higher around the same time that anyone else had that level.

So yes, you really are just making a fuss over nothing, and clinging to unrealistic examples of situations that you would not find yourself in.

[Tyssera-argent-dawn]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Like I said, in order for Keystones to not lose levels some kind of sacrificial payoff must be made.

A ‘sacrificial payoff’ like making connections with other people, perhaps, rather than relying on randoms. It seems to me that you’re only interested if it’s other people doing the sacrificing, and not yourself.

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

But in reality, if you only had a level 5 Keystone for a dungeon that you completed on level 15, then you probably got boosted if that was the case. With this system, if you are as skilled as you say you are… then you would have a level 15 Keystone or higher around the same time that anyone else had that level.

So yes, you really are just making a fuss over nothing, and clinging to unrealistic examples of situations that you would not find yourself in.

this^^

With the current system, people sacrifice their Keystone all the time, and get punished when someone decides to quit.

If Keystones did not lose levels, then YOU would not find yourself in the situation you give as an example. The only ones who would find themselves in that situation would be people who had been boosted.

Some friends and I had Keystones a few weeks ago that we simply did not want to do. So we joined a group from the group finder where a hunter had a level 13 Keystone I think it was. His item level was less than 190 and his damage was terrible. So terrible that my friends could not make up for his damage and the dungeon was not completed.

How did this guy have that Keystone in the first place? He was boosted. He was making a group then to try and get a free boost. This is the situation you are giving as an example. Should he get a level 14 Keystone in his vault when that would be far beyond his level?

Should you get a level 15 Keystone in your vault, when it would be beyond your level?

No!

[Hardedge-outland]

gl OP )))))

Lots of people who would maybe have the skill to complete higher level dungeons, maybe even have an E-Sport level of skill, are not getting to try it because of the current system.

thats 100% true. the problem is the practice loop. and probably the truth is, m+ would be better off as a separate game, wow is just too limiting for the format. you could implement tons of awesome stuff for m+ but they won’t and a lot of boomers would cry 24/7 like in this thread.

[Timaani-earthen-ring]

Well that “separate game” is technically Diablo III. That’s where they copied the system from in the first place. And I quit that one too, when keystones were the only content left.

[Tyssera-argent-dawn]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

If Keystones did not lose levels, then YOU would not find yourself in the situation you give as an example. The only ones who would find themselves in that situation would be people who had been boosted…How did this guy have that Keystone in the first place? He was boosted. He was making a group then to try and get a free boost.

You seem to have the mistaken impression that the only way people get boosts is to pay for them. Friends boost each other all the time. It’s one of the ways we get alts geared quickly. Four go on mains, one on a fresh alt, armour stack as much as possible and get the alt geared quickly.

Last week we boosted a friend’s 175 alt through a +14. He stayed alive amazingly well considering he should have died any time something looked at him, and he got a 226 weapon in the vault. So what if he got a +14 key out of it. Even if he listed it in group finder, anyone who looked at his RIO profile (as you claim you do) would see he’d been boosted and could decide whether they wanted to help him out with it or not. RIO is an amazing resource like that.

[Hardedge-outland]

rofl xDDDDD god the tier of analysis in those threads… no wonder you are a wow player.
M+ is a unique gameplay and the best thing that came out of wow. and right now M+ dungeon modifications (affixes) are relative simple you could do A LOT to make it much more fun, interesting and balanced. but not in wow.

[Daestra-turalyon]

@Hardedge-outland

• is a unique gameplay and the best thin

No 5 devs moved over from Diablo some years back and m+ stems ftom rifts its the same formula.

M+ is very good fun and pushing and i hope next season is fun.

OP your idea is very bad and i am sorry but it is a you issue .

M+ was made for friends and small guilds hence why i suggested you get a set team .

You seem adamant that your idea is good and 4 to 5 good skilled high pushers have told you are wrong yet you mock there views when you have never done anything above a 14.

Its disrespectful to dismiss others views and then moan when people dissect yours.

You none stop accusr others of being boosted when you do not look at reasons.

A person can take a 8 week break and there key in vault will drop from 15 to 7 .
Under your view they do not deserve a 15 which is wrong.

If i was you i would focus on improving your own game before you try and wreck fun for others.

If your idea was liked or good or well received by m+ players you would have the backing of more than 2 likes.

[Hardedge-outland]

No 5 devs moved over from Diablo some years back and m+ stems ftom rifts its the same formula.

diablo has a player comp like 1 dude tanks all the stuff and if he dies the whole group falls apart? and where you need to plan the route ahead and skip stuff or implement another techniques to succeed? the point is m+ is much more strategic than just chopping down the stuff. and blend of all this factors makes it unique (for now at least) diablo was a prototype. in wow you can see the real potential.