So? I mean the OP’s idea of XP earned for keys is never going to fly, but the basic principle of not letting keys de-level and create a UI where you can choose what level you want is pretty cool actually.
It really doesn’t take much to change from always punish one person (key-holder) to not have the key de-level and then setup a UI to choose the dungeon level up to where you qualified. If people want to bash their heads against a +21 they should be allowed to do that… Fractals in GW2 operate this way and it is amazing - nobody complain about that… Rifts in D3 works the same, so it’s a massive fallacy to claim that a system where keys don’t de-level cannot work in WoW.
People would like to say that my suggestion is bad from a high level dungeoneer’s point of view. And that until I have as much experience as them at playing high level dungeons (level 20+) that my opinion should not count as much as theirs does.
I have experience in Games Design and Development, and I just hope that the Blizzard developers get to see this suggestion, because at least they will look at it from a developer’s point of view rather than a player’s point of view.
blizzard don’t really care as any large gamedev company. until the profits are good. they will listen to those who pays more.
and i didn’t read your post but from sight - your suggestion is overcomplicated. basically if you are not a pussy you just remove the whole system and it’s done (let players choose the dungeon and level) current m+ system is only good for noob players which actually don’t really want to play m+. it’s like “cool i have some random key i need to do it” but for higher levels it’s only damaging because you don’t need this guidance from game mechanics.
It’s exactly what I said: restarting a key at will is a design choice which shift less torward RPG, more torward Arcade/tournament style.
The main issue is that people will tends to leave / put pressure to redo the key for the slightest mistake which is not a very engaging gameplay.
And in pug this is fine is everyone is on the same pace … less if not (which happens often in pug, especially in lower levels).
Please, it punishes everybody: time is wasted for everyone, items & gold are wasted, even fun of playing is wasted sometimes (I really hates nothing more than toxic players). Key are virtual currency that refreshes every week. You can enter someone else key (this only become a problem for the highest end where timing a very high key can prove difficult). Yes having your key downgrade can sucks especially if this one was important for whatever reasons. But I don’t really see it in pugs as the main punishment (apart for the highest end most likely).
Isn’t it a bit a exagerated ? You are proposing a system where to be able to complete a dungeon at level +15 for KSM, you will need to complete it at +2,+3,+4,+5… at least 1 time. Even 1 time, this is an enormous commitment, and you need to redo for every dungeons.
Most people will only level one key (easiest most likely) for their weekly gear. This will leads to even more boost to get KSM because people will pay others not to actually boost them, but to provides them an entry ticket to a locked dungeon.
The part about not depleting key has pros/cons, I have my doubt about it making it an healthier pug environment or not, but it clearly has pros.
Do you honestly believe you will get the same type of feedback when presenting an art piece (which is very subjective, very contemplative and requires a lot of skill to make, therefore to get useful feedback you would need someone with at least a bit of knowledge of how you made it.) and a new ruleset for a game, which is almost the exact opposite.
First you will face a lot of veteran of the said game (and furthermore it’s not “any” game) who sometimes have more experience than you and have a different way of consuming the content than you do therefore things you consider important might not be for them & vice versa.
Second your idea , by principle, will be considered detrimental by anybody who either believe there is no problem or your solution does not solve it and/or create a new one which is worse. They fight your ideas yet don’t propose anything “better” not by spite of something new, but because the current system does not need changes in their eyes.
Third your idea sounds irrelevant for some because there is alternative, which often are social alternative (to be expected in a social game). Your design goes against the philosophy of the game itself in their opinion.
Those ‘punishments’ are subjective and based on your intrinsic and arbitrary dispositions. You could argue that not getting loot is a punishment in that case - so let’s agree that watering down definitions makes words meaningless. The key de-leveling is a clear and direct effect of not completing the dungeon (on time) and it only affects one person not the group.
I don’t think anyone believes that the PUG environment will be healthier as a consequence of keys not de-leveling. It would be different though, but healthier… meh, that’s subjective again
Maybe, if not running the same key over and over and over again counts as masochism, but I think it’s more the opposite.
On the rare occasions I’ve played with pugs, I’m just relieved we timed it and I can check that off my list. Most times, I’m happy that my friends and I have made some more progress together.
I notice that you have 18s and 19s timed with pugs, and I’m very impressed, to be honest. Although I have to say that is my personal definition of masochism.
Who do you show it to? The reason I ask this is because I write fiction, and I know there’s no point in asking people who know me to read my work. The majority will only say nice things about it, either because they like me and don’t want to upset me, or because they simply don’t want to cause bad feelings by coming across as critical. The only way to get honest feedback is to show my work to strangers.
I will give you something constructive, and hopefully something to think about.
Blizzard don’t have a history of making drastic changes to the mythic plus system. They add things, yes, which we have seen in the great vault that offers more choice of rewards than the old weekly chest. We’re seeing it again in the new NPC for 9.1 that will allow you to exchange your end of dungeon key for something else. But the only real change they’ve made is to cap weekly loot at +14 rather than +15, which is a very small change.
Your idea involves a massive change (keystones not depleting) that would dramatically affect the M+ community as a whole. I think it would increase demand for paid boosting services as people pay to have the level of their own key upgraded by running dungeons multiple times. (Nothing would actually change because people would simply pay to get their key upgraded, which wouldn’t make those who have paid for boosts any more competent.) I also don’t think it would reduce the number of people leaving keys by a significant amount. If I abandon a key, it’s because other group member(s) are creating a toxic environment, or because it’s taking a ridiculously long time and I simply can’t afford to spend that much time in this one dungeon. Your system wouldn’t change that.
Someone made a suggestion elsewhere on this forum of a practice mode for mythic keystones. You enter the dungeon, click on the font, select practice mode and set the keystone level you want to practice. There are no rewards. It just provides a way to practice routes, pulls, timings, etc before you run the live key. There’s no reason why they couldn’t add a system like that (it’s an addition not a change) and also why they couldn’t provide a record of how many runs a character has completed at a certain practice level, and how many were in time. This would be useful for people creating pug groups - you could see how much practice each applicant has had in this dungeon at this level, and whether they successfully timed it - and it would also be useful for friends who want to practice tactics before running their keys.
As others agree, the way that Keystones lose levels is punishing to one person in a group. If the dungeon is completed over-time or if someone just leaves the group at the start of a run or mid run. It is still punishing just one person.
Also, if Keystones did not lose levels, then more people would reach the top of the leader-boards. That is how it would affect “the M+ community”.
The best artist in the world is unrecognised. The strongest human in the world has never entered the strong-man competition. The best novel sits unpublished. The most intelligent person in the world only earns minimum wage.
So it is safe to assume that the best players in WoW are not at the top of the leader-boards.
If Blizzard want to attract more players back to World of Warcraft, in todays gaming scene, they need to promote E-Sports. For them to do that, they have to open up the gate and clear the path - to allow more players a chance at reaching the top.
As far as Mythic Dungeons go, the only way to do that would be to remove the function which makes Keystones lose a level (I mean the function in the game’s code).
For them to remove that function, they must do other things which compensate for the fact that Keystones are no longer losing levels, to maintain balance. This is why my suggestion isn’t as short as “Remove the function”.
I also think that there are things which Blizzard could do in order to make Raiding more of a fair-game for E-Sport. Such as, open all wings of the Raids on Raid Finder first. Delay the Raids opening on the other difficulty modes consecutively.
Each season when a new raid opens, the players and guilds who were totally maxed out with all Best-in-slot items from the previous season, have a major advantage over everyone else. Therefore, they go on to complete the world-first achievements again and again whilst having almost no competition for the number 1 spot on the leader-boards.
If they opened the Raid Finder first, so that people could practice the raid and gear up ready for Normal Mode, followed by Heroic mode and finally further into the season Mythic Mode, then we would see some strong competition in the leader-boards for Raiding.
Method Guild took how many attempts to beat Jaina in the Dazar Alor Raid? If tons of other guilds had the same gear back then, I strongly doubt that Method would have gotten the World First achievement.
The best players in WoW do not reach the top.
Removing the function which causes Keystones to lose levels would simply be making Mythic Dungeons fair game for everyone, giving stronger competition to the E-Sport.
It punishes others (or not) depending of their expectation of the outcome of the dungeon. If anything else, everyone has lost their time in the key, time is the most important factor, you will never gain it back & you can rerun another key with more time.
It will have a lots of consequences, not all of them will be good for the community. but yes It may help a few individuals to push further. However claiming that this will be THE consequence is just wrong.
however:
Nonsense, the best players in the world are in the top of the leaderboard right now, maybe they will leave their throne for someone else in the future, but it is clearly not a silly game rule as minor as key depletion that prevents them from being at the very top. They are a ton of very good players that play solo but at some point this gamemode is about teamwork, you cannot perform as well as the best teams in the world solo, this is impossible.
It is not comparable to any sport either because every player in the top world groups has a specific role for the key, if you shuffle the best players together they would need sometimes to adapt to their new teammates before being able to perform as good as their current team.
This is just false again.
First LFR is worthless, it is not a challenge & it grants no meaningfull gear. You learn nothing from it but the assets of the boss & boss room + a very vague idea of the part of the strategy developpers haven’t gutted, more for the flavor than to create a challenging encounter.
Second if this was true then why is it still Echo (most of old Method roster) & Limit that sits on the world first place at the first patch of the expansion ?
When Castle Nathria opened, the best gear accessible (apart from a few exception like Darkmoon trinkets) was from M0. That should allow anybody to claim top according to your logic right ?
Well it was the same because the amount of investment from top guild is just gigantic compared to more chill (but still competitive) guilds
Top world guild have multiples characters for each raiders, extra top world raider on the bench for each encounter to swap if needed, spend millions of gold in BoE & consumables to be the very first to score a kill.
Third everyone who plays regularly on a non casual level is pretty much full geared/almost full geared at this point. My gear is inferior to a top world raider, but not THAT much (they probably have 5-8 more ilvl than me thanks to SLG & Sire dropping 233, but that’s not much) and I have 4 characters with that approximate gear.
Method squeezed in 3 days more than 150 pulls the first week when the raid opened (they squeezed between 1 and 80 pulls for the 7 others bosses). Do you think a lot of guilds can have this commitment ?
But it is Blizzard themselfs who stated m+ was designed for small guilds and friends due to them not being in guilds able to mythic raid so do not blame the players when its Blizzard who designed it like .
You are so very keen to ignore everything that is advised to you but its you who wants to pug and its you in nearly 6 years of m+ is still stalling at 14’s you refuse to use the advice giving to you but yet want to change the game for others who enjoy the system in set groups or communities who use it the way it was designed for BY BLIZZARD .
No just no please please stop mocking players that you could only dream about being that good . A guild that has been constantly in Top 3 since Cata before ANY mythic or m+ system or and before LFR came in
Actual facts above .
You are embarrasing yourself now insulting top end players .
I suggest you read through and have a long think before you question players and there ablities just because you can not do high skilled and high end content without gear to back you up .
To be blunt i think we could put you in current BiS and you still would not be hitting or timing or pushing high because you like to blame others and not look at yourself .
TL;DR: ‘The system is stacked against me, and I would be timing +30s if it gave me the chance to realise my full potential.’
Do you remember the comparison I made earlier in the thread, OP? Where I said how much you remind me of the player I know whose failures are always the fault of someone other than himself?
I didn’t say that it would be a consequence. a consequence is something negative.
It would be a good thing to have more competition. The only ones who would say it would not be good are the ones who would face the stronger competition, who are afraid of not winning. To be fair, it is like the top players just want everyone else to be hobbled by the keystone depleting.
Consider for a moment that the best players have a job, and don’t just sit at home all day on a fat wallet. They have less time. When their time is wasted by a Keystone level loss, it really holds them back. They are hobbled by it. Therefore they are not at the top of any leader-board.
Because they sit at home all day on a bank. They don’t have to go to work. Therefore, they jump straight onto the raid when it opens. (Plus as you say they buy out all BOE items).
I said they should delay the opening of the difficulty levels consecutively. If they did delay the opening of the difficulty levels as I say, more people would have a chance to practice and gear up ready for the next difficulty level opening which would then give more players a chance to reach the top. But you ignored this point.
“Everything” implies a list of things.
So far the only thing that has been said to me under the guise of advice is “Get some friends” in various different ways. Some people have gone the long way around saying this, others said it straight out like “Get some friends”. It is quite insulting if you think about it for a moment.
If someone has few or no friends and finds it difficult to socialise, this would be very upsetting to them.
Or if they are like me and simply don’t want to add more friends to their lists, or their friends play at different times due to commitments, then this is null “advice” again.
I can keep adding people to my friend’s lists and community, but it gets to a point where I have a server load of people on those lists and I am not getting any “quality time” with any of them. Do you think I have all day and night to sit networking with people in order to make groups for dungeons?
It’s dungeons we are talking about here, not 40 man raids. So if Blizzard designed it to be played by small groups of friends, they should check their aim and change it to benefit the solo player, because it doesn’t work for the majority of people who I see in-game.
I am not mocking anyone, I think you struggle with the definition of that word. Here, let me make it clear for you what that actually means…
Mocking:
adjective: mocking
making fun of someone or something in a cruel way; derisive.
Mock: verb
gerund or present participle: mocking
tease or laugh at in a scornful or contemptuous manner.
Such as telling someone “you could only dream about being that good”
Or telling a solo person to “get some friends”
Me saying that Blizzard could do something to make the E-Sport side of WoW more fair, and level the playing-field for people who are just not getting a chance to shine, in order for there to be stronger competition at the top… That isn’t “mocking” anyone.
Or such as this next quote which holds some contempt:
I am not saying that I personally would be timing top level Mythic Dungeons at all. I do believe that I would by now have at least timed all dungeons on level 15 if the Keystone did not keep losing levels, yes. I did almost time Plaguefall on level 16, but then the DPS started arguing and falling out on the last boss, and they quit before the dungeon was completed. With other DPS in the group it would have been done in time I have no doubt about that.
There are however, plenty of other players who would be timing 30s if they were not also being held back by the current system. That is for sure!
Excuse me ? This is a PvE gamemode, there is no “competition”, there is no players preventing you from starting a key by any means. Key depletion apply to everyone, and, if you watched any stream of a top key pusher … they deplete A LOT of keys, key depletion is hindering their progression much more than it is hindering yours (at your level you can hop on someone else key, they don’t have this option + timing their key is much much more difficult that timing yours). If key stopped depleting top teams would probably be pushing much higher because they could practice the craziest strat as much as they want without having to worry about depletion. They would spend their day if necessary for the world record.
The best players in the world are the best no matters the game rules. They play by the game rules yet come out on top (the game rules does not magically changes for them). Moreover while some of them spend their daytime playing, live with sponsors & streaming services they provide, others have jobs, this is just insulting.
Insulting & false. They are humans like you, they work for their wages one way or another like everybody.
I ignored ? excuse me ?
Do you understand how much commitment that represents ? This is 8-24h everyday for a week or more AND the same amount of time 1-2 weeks before for preparation. How much people are willing to do it in your opinion ?
Besides strategy is irrelevant:
Bosses have been tested on the PTR, entities like fatboss TV often provided guide for every bosses before the raid is even opened.
Heroic strategy just has nothing to do with Mythic strategy. Most CE guilds clean the tier in heroic the first week it is opened.
You can grasp the strategy of an heroic boss from a guide and/or 1-5 pulls, Mythic kills take for most CE guild 50-100+ pulls while being deep into the tier & fully geared AND the strat is known already (and I don’t wanna insult CE guilds they are very good guilds).
World first guilds do Mythic kills while being severely undergeared (~heroic gear maximum) and have to find the strategy for each bosses on the fly.
Even if you opened 1 mythic boss every week, it would still be the same guilds that comes out on top. You just can’t improvise being a world first guild, there is a level of commitment to the highest level of the game that is just impossible to achieve by luck or skill alone.
This is just ignorant, the best key worlwide are +27. There are 3-5 teams in the world able to achieve that. Thinking that something as petty as key depletion will open up even greater difficulty to a lot of people is just dumb.
Honestly stop putting the highest end of the game in your argumentation, your opinion is baked on ignorance & misconception. Inform yourself of what the highest level is before talking nonsense about it.
I am not mocking anyone. I am saying something which is a fact. Blizzard have the game unfairly rigged to suit the ones who guaranteed every season get the world first achievements. They have zero competition. There is literally no point in even having an achievement. It may as well have their name on it The pay to win players only achievement
If you look for a moment at how many people have actually engaged in this topic… 11
Do you actually think that you are right because a few of them agree with you?
You tell me that my opinion doesn’t count and try to invalidate any suggestion I make or anything that I say based on “you haven’t completed level 20 yet” and you make out like it is me mocking people? get real will you!
When someone who is pushing 20s came along and agreed with what I am saying, you just side stepped his points…
All you are doing here, is doing your best to tell me that I am wrong about anything and everything, no matter what I say.
Lol they don’t pay a dime to get the world first achievement. It’s more the opposite, they get paid (by sponsors & streaming services) so people can watch their progression because this is content people are willing to watch so it attract viewer.
Do you think they get their gold with the wow token ? lol Limit spent more than 330millions for Caslte Nathria. The wow token was ~150k as this time makes the calculation yourself it would be impossible
They gain their gold back throught boosting mostly.
They are getting the world first because they spend 16h/day for multiples weeks to get it. Nothing more.
And honestly I understand the PoV of the warrior more, there is often thread like this where very high skilled people who mainly pug get stuck at some point which leads to frustration. He wish for a more “tournament like” gameplay which is understandable.
You on the other hand are stuck on a difficulty a ton of people have cleared no problem yet you accuse the system of being the culprict while clearly it isn’t. There is solutions, simple solution, the dumbest of them all is just apply more (and maybe start to clear more than 1 +14 intime for example instead of directly jump into +15 where there is a lot of applicants). You even got into a +16 while claiming “it is impossible”, do you expect to oneshot every key you do ? Do you think everyone who get their KSM did it on the first try ?
