A new improved system for Mythic Keystones!

[Alleyâh-khaz-modan]

So you also want to be able to choose your dungeon at will, it will be never be done … because people go for the least resistance path: 90%+ of the key done in pug will be Mists just because it is the fastest (& pretty easy any week but tyra-explosive), and places that are already less appreciated (such as SD) will never be done in pug, ever. The devs wants the M+ experience to be all dungeons relatively even, not one or maybe two dungeons that are run 95% of the time.

@Ronjambö-nagrand

The game is supposed to be played as you like to play it. I don’t see any rules written by Blizzard which say “This content isn’t for you because you don’t have a team of friends.” So if someone wants to play in Pick-up-groups then they should have the same opportunities as others who do have a team of friends.

But you can put your keystone with anybody you are not denied the opportunity, however this is challenging content you are responsible for the people you bring with you

@Ronjambö-nagrand

So this level of toxicity you say would be created, it already exists! Only with the current system, each time the Tank (the leader) decides that the dungeon should be restarted or that someone should be kicked out, someone loses a level off of their Keystone. They get punished for it.

That is way I said “another layer”, it will not replaces toxiticy, it will add a bit more. Plus anybody who ragequit the key severely reduces the odds of success, not just the tank. Thinking you are better than anyone else because you play tank & you lead the group is blatantly false, this is just an illusion from lower key because most mechanic are soakable & dps check is pretty easy, therefore most fail come from tank death or atrocious pulls.

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Well I wrote in the opening post, perhaps 10 points of XP to gain a level.
When the dungeon is completed in-time it would gain 1 point of XP to the Keystones of each player, if all of the players in the group have the same level Keystone for that dungeon.

If the dungeon is completed over-time, no XP would be gained.

The current system awards 1 to 3 levels depending on the timer. Perhaps 1 to 3 points of XP would be ok.

This is atrocious, I don’t want to run every dungeons 10 times on every garbage difficulty below +10 just to “prove” that I can do a dungeon ( & every season do it again lol), the system is good enought as it is, you level up your key really fast if you are stomping, then you stagnate at your level, until you decides to pump up to push.

& Imagine you want to start a lower key for a friend, yeah nice now farm back 10*X times to gain back the level of your key.

& What is your issue with “practice” ? You can hop in whatever key in pug & practice for there, especially in low key the level does not matter that much (11 or 12 is pretty much the same). There is no lack in dungeon application so there is no lack in practice. Up to point where you need a team to progress of course

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

I mean the dungeon, not the level.

Is that relevant? 100 times or so? A +15 is not so comparable with a +19 though.
With your rules i would have been at +10 instead of +19 now

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

Well I know a guy who keeps at least 10 alts and only ever runs mists anyway.

The new feature you seem impressed about on the Test Server is going to allow people the same freedom of choice which you say would not be allowed here.

I like Sanguine Depths! I could go for an expansion which is all Venthyr/Vampires, like Pandaria but with Vamps lol. Everyone likes something different. I don’t know why but there is a lot of Blue Light in some of the dungeons. I have never had eyesight issues but I have had to buy glasses which filter out the blue light because my eyes start watering mid dungeon. This happens on Mists, De Other Side, and Necrotic Wake + Spires the most, so I personally prefer the other dungeons.

But I see your point, and I think people would still do the other dungeons because they want to get the Keystone Master achievement completed.

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You could also say that the people who join your group should be responsible for the time they pledge to the run when they apply to join it. They should expect it to be difficult and not have an eye towards quitting it over some trivial mistake or the tank using a route that they are not used to.

I have seen plenty of people saying “well i didn’t mind if it wasn’t timed i just wanted it completed” after someone quit. (They wanted it completed because it already lost levels and they want a different dungeon).

It isn’t the sole responsibility of the Keystone holder.

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It would make things less toxic as people would have less to argue about. Their Keystone would not lose a level, so they can find a different group.

@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

Thinking you are better than anyone else because you play tank & you lead the group is blatantly false

I didn’t mean that anyone thinks they are better than anyone for being the tank. There is some aspect of confusion here.

I mean that the tank has a responsibility, the Tank has to make the route, has to manage the pulls and watch that others don’t agro things, pull from them if they do. The tank is “leading the way” through the dungeon.

But regardless of who is classed as or called the “leader” of a group, the Tank is calling the shots most of the time. Maybe because they know it can be difficult for some groups to find a tank.

Either way you originally said that the group leader would be calling the shots which currently tanks do anyway. So there won’t be extra arguments from this, things would pretty much stay the same here as far as dungeon completion goes.

However, with my suggestion, when someone leaves the dungeon (tank or not) there would be far less arguing because nobody would be losing a level from their Keystone.

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@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

& Imagine you want to start a lower key for a friend, yeah nice now farm back 10*X times to gain back the level of your key.

gain back the level?

Your Keystone would not lose any levels. If you want to run a dungeon using your friend’s lower level Keystone, they would just gain XP as I suggested in the original post. But if you wanted to boost your friend, then you could use your Keystone and add perhaps a few levels onto your friend’s Keystone.

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@Psjohly-argent-dawn

@Ronjambö-nagrand

I mean the dungeon, not the level.

Is that relevant? 100 times or so? A +15 is not so comparable with a +19 though.
With your rules i would have been at +10 instead of +19 now

Yes it is relevant. You have done the dungeon 100 times or so, and you have only just completed your 19.

Lets say for example, you were running with your regular group and timing dungeons well. With 2 points of XP to your Keystone each run. So you are running a dungeon 5 times per level…

5*20=100.

So with the suggested Keystone system, you would be completing that level 20 dungeon within the same amount of total runs on that dungeon as you have managed to under the current system.

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Yes it is relevant. You have done the dungeon 100 times or so, and you have only just completed your 19.

Lets say for example, you were running with your regular group and timing dungeons well. With 2 points of XP to your Keystone each run. So you are running a dungeon 5 times per level…

5*20=100.

So with the suggested Keystone system, you would be completing that level 20 dungeon within the same amount of total runs on that dungeon as you have managed to under the current system.

But we are ‘never’ 2 chesting it, and we also have failed runs among those 100 I just want to get a higher key when i time one

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

I was giving the example based on averages. If you had to run the same dungeon multiple times to gain 1 level, then I am sure you would through the course get some faster runs.

If Blizzard did take up this suggested system, they would make some changes to it anyway. I did say maybe 10 points of XP to 1 level, maybe 5 points of XP would be right for it.

[Grovi-silvermoon]

I usally dont blacklist people based on forum posts, but i read most of the replies and you are literally the stereotype of ‘‘meh i dont need to put in effort, healer can do it for me’’

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

If Blizzard did take up this suggested system, they would make some changes to it anyway. I did say maybe 10 points of XP to 1 level, maybe 5 points of XP would be right for it.

5 times is definitely more than 1 time still

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

@Grovi-silvermoon

I usally dont blacklist people based on forum posts, but i read most of the replies and you are literally the stereotype of ‘‘meh i dont need to put in effort, healer can do it for me’’

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. My friend the Paladin Healer says he hardly has to heal me at all. When something goes wrong and people die, I can still be alive and holding the Pride or other mobs when the rest of the group arrive back at the point where they died.

But whatever man, you go ahead and blacklist me if it makes you feel better. Thanks!

[Grovi-silvermoon]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. My friend the Paladin Healer says he hardly has to heal me at all.

I say the same to an old friend that i cut communication with, do you know why?

He couldnt even bother interrupting so i just pretended he was doing well while i carried his bum because i know he would be too stubborn to listen

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

Well I think my friend is being modest in part. But Not an A-hole.

Thanks!

[Tyssera-argent-dawn]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

I did say maybe 10 points of XP to 1 level, maybe 5 points of XP would be right for it.

Yeah… no.

The highest key I’ve had is a DoS +16 (I lowered it to +15 so we could time it for the group because we didn’t have it timed at 15). It took me 30 runs of DoS to get that key. Under your system, even with the 5 points per level, it would have taken me 70 runs.

People are complaining all the time that there’s too much grind in WoW. Do you really think players would welcome an idea that dramatically adds to it?

[Alleyâh-khaz-modan]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

But I see your point, and I think people would still do the other dungeons because they want to get the Keystone Master achievement completed.

Yes the first few weeks when the crowd of people will be interested in getting this done. Once most have it done, the availability of some dungeons will drastically drop, as nobody will ever want to run them. And because M+ =/= Mists random key will be kept that way so that the overall set of dungeons is being played and not just the few easiest / fastest.

@Ronjambö-nagrand

It would make things less toxic as people would have less to argue about. Their Keystone would not lose a level, so they can find a different group.

Less toxic for who exactly ? The keyholder sure? The one kicked because the keyholder had a second thought about his application … less sure ? That’s the issue if you remove all penalty to a failed dungeon in pug, you give more weight to one player above others and that will sure create toxicity.

I like the fact that you are “locked” with your team when the dungeon start: you cannot be replaced without penalty, so your position is assured.

Also I think for most people losing a key is an absolute non issue: you find someone else key of an attractive level for you, problem solved. Most people are pissed their key are jeopardized by whatever reasons, the key itself … get replaced at the end of the week anyways. The real problem lies in the time wasted and pointless drama. (And you need to time 1 key per week of your desirable level to get another one in your vault, so whatever …)

@Ronjambö-nagrand

gain back the level?

Your Keystone would not lose any levels. If you want to run a dungeon using your friend’s lower level Keystone, they would just gain XP as I suggested in the original post. But if you wanted to boost your friend, then you could use your Keystone and add perhaps a few levels onto your friend’s Keystone.

If my friend just pinged 60, did his covenant campaign, farmed some starting gear + a leg in thorgast & is 185. I want to assist him do a +10 for his weekly, with your system what do I do ?

• I downgrade my key to 10 which will takes me weeks of re-grind ?
• I take him to my key level where he would be an absolute deadweight just because of his lack of stamina ?

And imagine I am a key pusher above +20 (which I am not, but for the sake of explanation), do I need to loose weeks of hard done grind to do my little weekly +14 (because one week my wow schedule only allowed me this time for example) ?

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. My friend the Paladin Healer says he hardly has to heal me at all. When something goes wrong and people die, I can still be alive and holding the Pride or other mobs when the rest of the group arrive back at the point where they died.

But whatever man, you go ahead and blacklist me if it makes you feel better. Thanks!

Again you fall in the wrong conclusion that “I didn’t died, so I must be good & I have done a good job”.
No you haven’t … why are everyone dead ? Pride don’t kill people (at your level) unless you ignore them for too long (or they take every pride cross, but I refuses to believe that is the case everytime your pride is a wipefest). There are lots of reasons where the root of the issue does not lie in people dead right now but mistakes made earlier (possibly by you, if your pride timing is mid pull for example).
Also the fact that you do not need heal & do not die lie more in the fact that blood DK is an excellent tank for lower difficulty where you overgear the content because it has tons of self-healing. It does not means you played “good” (it does not mean you played bad either, it just does not mean anything without context).

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

If my friend just pinged 60, did his covenant campaign, farmed some starting gear + a leg in thorgast & is 185. I want to assist him do a +10 for his weekly, with your system what do I do ?

You join someone else’s group and do their 10 key.

@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

Also the fact that you do not need heal & do not die lie more in the fact that blood DK is an excellent tank for lower difficulty where you overgear the content because it has tons of self-healing. It does not means you played “good” (it does not mean you played bad either, it just does not mean anything without context).

Yes, players die a lot from the pride cross.

Sometimes pride spawns with mobs still alive. I try to make routes that avoid this but sometimes people pull extras and it messes up the %. But if you can see that there is 1% to go for pride and 3 mobs standing, is it really the tanks fault that the DPS are not switching targets to make the mobs die together?

DK tank has relatively low damage. They are planning to buff it.

Due to low damage DK Tanks also have low threat generation. If some character with high critical strike rating does some AOE critical strike, or single target critical strike from taking a different target to the tank’s focus, then they will take agro and steal a mob from the tank.

DK tank does not have any AOE Taunt, as Paladins do. So the low threat generation can cause problems. (Which is why they are getting buffed).

DK Tank has to watch out for this, and learn to deal with it. Even then, skill can’t make up for the short fall in threat generation. 1 taunt, 1 Death Grip which isn’t a taunt and a Gorefiend’s Grasp with a long cooldown.

DK tank doesn’t have a heal over time spell on them. If you don’t rotate your strikes, you don’t heal yourself. You die.

DK Tank is far from meta. I was in the top 50 alliance DK Tanks on my server in the RIO scoreboard, since I completed every dungeon on level 10 in-time. This isn’t a bragging right, and I don’t say it with any pretence. It doesn’t mean I am good at all! The reason for this is because not very many people at all are playing the DK Tank. That’s how far from meta they are.

You have to be skilful to play a DK Tank, else you will die a lot and all you will get is insults.

[Tyssera-argent-dawn]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

But if you can see that there is 1% to go for pride and 3 mobs standing, is it really the tanks fault that the DPS are not switching targets to make the mobs die together?

When I’m tanking, I just say (on voice), “These all need to die together. We’re getting pride.” Sorted. No wipe.

OP: “DK tank is so difficult. I’m such an awesome player.”

Give it a break, OP. You’re clearly not an awesome player or you’d have your KSM by now.

And for the record, paladin tanks do not have an AOE taunt unless they spec into final stand, which is taking a ‘panic button’ talent over one that’s actually useful in normal play.

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

I could just as easily say “give it a break, you are not an awesome player, you are carried by your team”

Ive gone off topic with you guys about as much as I care to on the subject of my game play here. It has nothing to do with the suggestion I made.

I believe that the system I suggest would be a better system which would benefit a lot of players.

Just because you might not like the idea of not gaining a straight level from each dungeon run, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be better for those who unlike you do not have a set team to run with, who lose more levels than they gain.

[Alleyâh-khaz-modan]

@Ronjambö-nagrand

You join someone else’s group and do their 10 key.

And if I want to do my key I just cannot do it without penalty because it is “too good” ? Absurd.

And I am not going to quote the rest of the discussion but dude … you are accusing people of derailling a discussion yet you do me a lecture about Blood DK … do you realise I am a blood DK myself ? And while my own progression is not particularly brilliant I have multiples BFA KSM behind me & did +10 the very first week of the patch while you started 3months ago when 197 gear was granted for free via covenant campaign?

But if you insist:
Your 40 talent is wrong: Aoe slow for 90% is overwhelmly better than slightly reduced CD for gorefiend, tanking in SL heavily revolve in constant kiting and this talent is your main tool for it.
Your 30 talent is also wrong: the RP generation from relish in blood is better than the bonus HP from bulwark, you can also take Blood tap if you want a more active talent, paired with Rune tap it is a correct defensive tool
Also if you struggle with aggro Bonestorm is excellent, in packs it grants you invincibility for the duration (lackluster in monotarget however). The first weeks before Blood DK up (there was 15% dmg buff at the beginning of the xpac because BDK dmg was atrociously bad) I had to use this talent for every pull (paired with venthyr ability) just to keep aggro.

Gorefiend doesn’t taunt anything, I don’t know why you bring it to the discussion.

But overall, having an aoe taunt doesn’t seems necessary right now, use venthyr ability before the pull, open with DnD + 2 Blood Boil ASAP ant you shouldn’t have any aggro issue.

I don’t get the healing over time, yes and ? If you don’t use your self healing kit while playing a self healing class you die … you don’t need to use every global on death strike.
With hemostatis talent it’s even worse than that: you need at least one blood boil between two death strike or you healing will be garbage

@Ronjambö-nagrand

I was in the top 50 alliance DK Tanks on my server in the RIO scoreboard, since I completed every dungeon on level 10 in-time

Also this, what does it even bring to the discussion ? you are top X because you did easy difficulty on low pop server, so what ?
My server is low pop, I am currently top 20 while having cleared all +15 … that means nothing.
Also in previous season I used to be top 5 or even top 1 at some point of the season … because I was the first of my realm to clear KSM on this class, so what ? Tons of people from other realm were/are better than I & Tons of others went further than I later in the patch. meaningless

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

& did +10 the very first week of the patch while you started 3months ago when 197 gear was granted for free via covenant campaign?

Yes, I started when people were quitting the game until the next season starts. Figure that!

@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

Also this, what does it even bring to the discussion ? you are top X because you did easy difficulty on low pop server, so what ?
My server is low pop, I am currently top 20 while having cleared all +15 … that means nothing.

It means that there isn’t much competition, because hardly anyone is playing the DK Tank. If a DH or Druid completed all on level X, they would just about be in the top 200.

[Alleyâh-khaz-modan]

Yet you are trying to lecture me about BDK while I clearly think I have more experience than you have on the matter and while derailling your own thread ?

You play the patch while having all borrowed power unlocked: full conduit tree, free 197, max ilvl legendary (well you could have it but you didn’t bought it). This is the easy mode of the content and you lecture me about my own class yet you are upset when I correct you ? I am confusted honestly

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Sometimes pride spawns with mobs still alive. I try to make routes that avoid this but sometimes people pull extras and it messes up the %. But if you can see that there is 1% to go for pride and 3 mobs standing, is it really the tanks fault that the DPS are not switching targets to make the mobs die together?

Also this, you control which pulls are done, where to kill them and you can even do a very little communations with mark (such as skull or the dreaded chat) to try to make the runs as smooth as possible. Saying it is never your fault is just wrong, you have the most control over it. If something was pulled where it shouldn’t, you can always do an easier pack, try to correct it with a skip, mark mobs that should/shouldn’t be focused, do the pack at a place that is safer next time so you won’t extra pull etc…

Also as people stated, the game is already grindy enought as it is, it does not need yet another grind to cater to people that wants to bruteforce a challenging content with 0 communications

[Ronjambö-nagrand]

@Alleyâh-khaz-modan

Yet you are trying to lecture me about BDK while I clearly think I have more experience than you have on the matter and while derailling your own thread ?

I pointed out that

@Ronjambö-nagrand

You have to be skilful to play a DK Tank, else you will die a lot and all you will get is insults.

Because I am tired of you and others implying that I am a bad player because I haven’t completed X amount of dungeons.

Take it as a compliment, you have to be skilful to play your character. And stop going on about it because like I already said…

@Ronjambö-nagrand

Ive gone off topic with you guys about as much as I care to on the subject of my game play here. It has nothing to do with the suggestion I made.

I believe that the system I suggest would be a better system which would benefit a lot of players.

Just because you might not like the idea of not gaining a straight level from each dungeon run, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be better for those who unlike you do not have a set team to run with, who lose more levels than they gain.

[Alleyâh-khaz-modan]

There is a difference between people saying “you are bad” and acknowledging that people are better than you & take their constructive feedback. There is people better than you & you don’t play perfect, that is obvious & true for everyone.

You dismiss every feedback & advice because “people wants to make fun of me because they believe i’m bad”, trust me buddy, if the only reason I (and Psjoly) wrote here was to make fun of you neither of us would have posted useful informations. Look at the infamous panda priest at the very beginning of your thread for comparison.

You are trying to invent a system which is atrociously grindy for no valid reasons as an excuse for your lack of progression while I believe they come from 2 factors:

• You always look for excuse for your lack of progression while you could try to improve your own skill.
• You refuses to communicates for a content where communication is key and you refuses to look for like minded people to play with you.

If keystone didn’t depletes in case of failure you would still be stuck for the same exact reasons, maybe 1 key higher, maybe 2, maybe 0.