28 Days later from my original post. All 10s done, portals aquired S1 done, ROP S2 watched, in therapy preparing for S2.
My thoughts
Pugging experience has improved but still unrewarding socially. More gear has helped hugely and can now carry mistakes more both personal and group. 628.5 now with 90 crests and a spark to play with.
Decided to call my season at 10s as things seem to get serious from 11 onwards. Encountered a few toxic elitists who think every tank has to have the skill of Yoda or Naowh. With no real goals other than KSH just no real point pushing higher.
Have met some really nice people along the way so not all bad.
This pool of dungeons suck and its actually the returning dungeons that are most enjoyable. Stonevault is probably my preferred new dungeon. Not looking forward to Cinderbrew and Darkcleft for S2 hope im wrong.
DPS that do mechanics and good damage make keys so enjoyable I always seem to have defensives for the harder pulls , can pull bigger and generally on chill mode. Thank you to all those DPS you know who you are.
ROP S2 is the biggest load garbage I have ever watched and I apologise to the community as I would rather tank those toxic keys than put myself through that again.
Top players where survivability is such an issue that loosing dps is worth it?
Or lower players who believe (wrongly) that an Aug somehow will compensate L2P ?
Be more specific. Because for the first case I already explained why its the right thing to do. And for the second case i already explained why its a mistake.
And a spec that is only worth it for super high keys is not a well designed spec.
Check again aug doesnt really make your group lose dps . They have very close dps to mages. Of course it is not the dps of an enh or a dkfrost but the little dps loss should not be a major downside as you describe it.
I dont wanna be that guy, but I already said it .
I mean do you believe it could be a real dps loss and also be in every highest key ? Common sens says no. You probably know that any pull that stays alive longer is deadlier. Which litterally makes the damage a way to survive and on top of that the aim is to be the fastest. If any spec cost a significant dps loss it is out of the competitive scene, isnt it ?
And where do you get your data from ? I repeat. I am not making this stuff up. Its documented in warcraft logs.
Here is a resume of warcraft logs :
https://mythicstats.com/dps
Aug is LAST in the DPS chart. But somehow, its S tier. WHY ? It could have been a fluke. That guy that does the web page is maybe wrong. So I checked Warcraft Logs myself for some specific runs. The list of logs is at the bottom of this post.
But ALL logs say that an Aug does 100% of the runs between 20% and 30% less DPS than the other DPS of the party.
No it isent. I explained it before. I quote it here.
But the TLDR of all of this is that in M+ right now the limiting factor is NOT dps. Its survivability. Things start to 1-shot you, specifically the tank that gets mauled by white attacks.
The top keys are being done with 3 to 4 minutes left. AND with an Aug. So they can âsacrificeâ DPS to make sure the tank dosent get 1-shot.
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List of WC logs : +15 runs done today Nov 8th 2024. Only the logs that have a duration of ~ 30 min (1 dungeon). I wont go farther in time, or look at really long logs cause it would be spam at this point.
If you notice, there are runs with a DPriest. And in the runs with DPriest there is always 1 DD that out-dpeses everyone else. That is because those guys are good enough to know when to lign up the DDâs CDs, with PI, and Aug buffs PLUS do the route such that it happens in really big pulls.
This dosent happen in Pugs at lower keys. 100% guaranteed. So in lower keys the damage of the Aug (that depends on the other 2 DDs) will be even worse in comparison.
The list:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1wJfx6QZqPD3phC9#boss=-3&difficulty=0
(check the mage what he does compared to the Aug)
Are you happy now ? Need more proof ? Or you want to continue talking about âhypotheticalsâ ?
But the question remains. When survivability is not an issue in 12+ and below, when gear and L2P are MORE than enough to time thatâŠ
WHY would you take an Aug if survivability is not an issue ? Especially because at low key levels people die because they dont do mechanics right, or dont kick. And an Aug cant do ANYTHING about that. No matter how much it buffs the healer.
And on TOP of that, DDs in lower keys simply do less DPS. Because they are not as good, because they have ZERO coordination with teammates, because they are under geared⊠many reasons. But if 50% of an Augâs DPS comes from the other 2 DDs, and those 2 DDs suck⊠then so will the Aug. It will suck 20% to 30% more than the other 2 DDs. No matter how good the Aug plays.
when was the last time when you missed the timer in like +10 in zero death run ?
thats why people take aug.
and yes - if group sucks every aug will suck . but if group is even semi good you have very smooth runs - maybe a bit slower - but in like 95 % of cases those 2-3 min extra doesnt matter at all when nooone dies.
escpecialy with nonsensical affix like chalengers peril .
this season is very very 0-1 - either your group is good and you +2 / +3 keys or your group is unable to compelte key at all.
But its contradictory to another statement you said:
So. If your group sucks, you will deplete the key with or with out an Aug. Because the group dosent CC, because the healer dosent pass healer checks, tank forgets 1 def and gets 1-shot⊠many dumb reasons to deplete. None of them preventable by an Aug.
Therefore, L2P > Aug. And Aug will NOT cover for peopleâs mistakes.
And if your group is semi decent you will +2 chest the key. And in that case, you are good with or without an Aug.
And here is the thing. In low keys, damage is not lethal. You donât NEED by any stretch of the imagination an Aug to deal with the damage in a +10. And loosing out on the extra DPS of 1 DD achieves the inverse effect: The run dosent go smoothly. Because more DPS == shorter packs/bosses (whatever the size of the pull) and therefore, less stressful.
Therefore by taking an Aug you are shooting yourself in the foot. If you play low keys.
Basically what I am trying to say here is that a really good DPS can carry a party if needed. A really good Aug cannot. It depends on the other 2 DPS. And the lower in keys you go, the suckier will those DPS (and healers/tanks be). And as a result, Aug will loose more and more value the lower the key level.
you waited 28 days to reply im not intrested in your trolling and lack of understanding about high level keys. your whole attitude through out the thread is to be rude and snippy to others.
As I said earlier yes the evoker is below the mage but from numbers that doesnt reflect a âlow DPSâ. The evoker does 10% less damage than the mage.
And sorry for the ugly links this crap didnt let me
Dont worry. I dont expect anyone to open them all. That is whay my scripts are for.
Im afraid YOU did not look where it matters.
Here is the problem. You are looking at both cases in isolation. That is your mistake.
So Aleksib runs with a DK and Enh shaman. And Milkmage runs with Enh Shaman and Aug.
Lets review 1 log of Milkmage: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dA8gDvK2qNazTJyr#fight=2
and 1 log of Aleksib: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rM2wjvGm9BRDKYg1#boss=-3&difficulty=0
As you can see, the DPS of the Aug in the group is not the same. In both cases what most draws your attention is where they get their damage from : Ebon Might.
Aleksib gets 26% of its damage from Ebon Might. The Aug of Milkmage gets only 20%, and relies on direct damage spells like Eruption to generate more DPS.
Why is this? Because Aleksib runs a melee comp. So Ebon Might catches ALL the DDs at once with a very high uptime. Wile Milkmageâs comp has a harder time getting the buff to 1 melee and 1 caster in narnia.
In the end, both Augs do ~ the same DPS. However, it is clear that Milkmage receives a lower uptime of Ebon Might, and therefore his DPS is lower than the DK in Aleksibâs comp. And I am not going to get into AoE vs. Prio DPS. Because the roll of mages is to do Prio DPS, which creates smaller overall recounts but benefits the run much more.
And all this is assuming PERFECT coordination in keys. With voice coms and stuff. AND perfect execution of DPS rotations.
I explained earlyer that the worse these parameters are, the worse will be the performance of Aug.
Here you can see that the Aug does ~ the same DPS as the Rogue. But look at the DPS of that rogue and his ilvl and you will understand that the problem there is a sub-par DPS (the rogue).
And if you look at the damage breakdown of the Aug, the #1 skill is Eruption (direct DPS) with 21.75% of the damage, while Ebon Might is only 18.75%. What this means is that that Aug CANNOT do more DPS unless the other DDs perform and the damage component of Ebon Might increases. Which is a stark contrast to Aleksib whoâs Ebon Might damage componenet is ~30% across all runs. Hence, boosting his own DPS closer to a real DPS.
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Look. I dont want to soind rude. But I analize warcraft log data for fun using my custom scripts. If you want to argue with me be my guest. But I will say again and again⊠the Aug situation is DOCUMENTED. Its just that to see it you need to dig in Warcraft Logs. And 99.99999% of people that give their opinion on Aug dont do it.
All they do is repeat their favorite opinion they read in Reddit or in the Forums (which also did not look at the logs). And that is not the way to discuss a spec performance. Because the mistake you do is very common. You get the top players and look at their performance, and you have no idea how many times I have to remind people that PI exists.
Like the most recent DPS rankings for Enh⊠They show up as Enh being top DPS by a mile. But I showed you a TON of logs with Enh, and in ALL of them they run with a DPrist that is casting PI on CD to the Enh. And that makes the Enh statistics squewed.
But the question here is, WHY Enh and not Elemental that technically does more DPS? Well because Enh has a 2 min Ascendance (PI has 2 min CD) and Ele runs with a 3 min ascendance. It means that Ascendance + PI == More DPS than Ascendance/PI with out stacking. That is the ONLY reason Enh is taken over Ele.
So in reality, Enh does âOK dpsâ. Except that all the statistics (or top keys) are squewed with PI. And that is why PI is problematic, but that is a different can of worms. But we can discuss that one too if you want.
Fact of the matter is that people are going nuts in lower keys with Enh. Forgetting that a ele/warrior/rogue does more dps than an Enh. UNLESS you bring a DPriest that casts PI on you every 2 min SHARP because the tank does a route that specifically does big pulls every 2 minutes.
And Aug is in the same boat as PI is. Problems on top of problems.
Haha you gotta reduce the amount of words because again I am extremly lazy buddy. Thatâs too many word for a simple âyesâ .
The aug of Milkmage also have around 10% less dps than Milkmage. I did quick comput before posting to be relevant. Case are isolate as a show, but if you think about it, its not. Average mage will also have a lower dps.
So my opinion is aug is hidden and people think its not OP du to no addons able to comput their damages. Am I right ?
Enh is the most broken DPS in the game. First ST, top aoe, top cleave, first in utility. It wont change a while du to mdi. You dont have to lie in case you are afraid of a nerf and anyway nobody reads the eu forum.
Again please, donât write a book or do me a tldr
OK fine. Il keep it simple. But if you question me, I will revert back to the post you did not read that proves my points.
Answer is NO. You are wrong.
Ehh⊠No. It IS an isolated case. Plus, we are talking about Aug DPS, so we have to compare Aug+mage and Aug+DK. And I showed you with numbers why it matters.
And if you want to talk about mage DPS we have to compare Mage+Aug and Mage+noAug. And specifically in this case, Mage in caster comp vs. melee comp. Range matters for Aug.
That is not what I said. I said people dont understand what Aug does, or WHY it matters in the Meta.
And neither does blizzard because Aug has been meta for 4 seasons in a row. No other spec in the game has had a pass like that. EVER.
NO.
If you would have read my post, my question was the following:
Why not RShaman ? Why not Ele ? Both have the same utility. And perform better than Enh. So what gives ?
And I answered to you. A 2 minute Ascendance that pairs well with PI and Ebon Might. Doubling down on multiplicative buffs and as a result, you get the âbusted Enhâ numbers and a better performance than Ele.
That is why its âOPâ now.
You will have to beleive what I say then:
The Aug problem is well documented. There is NO discussion about it because the data (that you dont want to read) sais so.
. They have very close dps to mages. Of course it is not the dps of an enh or a dkfrost but the little dps loss should not be a major downside as you describe it.
