“Again, you’re welcome to be wrong. But you’ve mistaken the Wrath tree for the TBC one. TBC meant you could build hybrid specs, WoTLK still essentially locked you into one spec as the 51 point abilities are too strong.”
I disagree with your assessment. WotLK did not lock you strictly into one spec; rather, it refined the specialization of each tree. Take the hybrid Warlock Demonology/Destruction build as an example. While the 51-point talents were indeed powerful, they didn’t negate the viability of hybrid builds. Players still had the flexibility to mix and match talents from different trees to suit their playstyle, particularly for PvP or specific PvE scenarios. The depth of customization was still present; it was just more focused and refined.
“I’d rather be ‘toxic’ than wrong.”
You’re mistaken in your approach, which is quite toxic. Time will tell who’s right when Cataclysm launches and we see if it truly marks the end of the Classic era as many of us suspect.
“‘Doom’? No, not at all. WoTLK offered us a super easy levelling experience compared to TBC and Vanilla. It offered us easy dungeons too. There was no sense of impeding doom or danger. Every class could pull multiple mobs and many classes could solo the elite quests. And what do you do once you’re lvl80? You get the joy of sitting in Dalaran.”
Reaching level 80 opens a world of activities in WoW—arenas, battlegrounds, and high-level dungeons and raids are just the beginning. I find immense joy in this endgame content, and alongside that, leveling alts and delving into the rich lore of the game.That you don’t find the same joy in these aspects doesn’t mean they’re lacking—perhaps they’re just not for you. There’s no wrong way to enjoy WoW as long as you’re having fun. Isn’t that what gaming is all about?
"There was no ‘storytelling’, those bosses were added as a sauce of entertainment. Boss fights that we kill for rewards. Illidan’s story was even retconned in Legion.
WoW’s story has always been bad. W3 offered a much better story-telling narrative than an MMORPG ever could"
I have to disagree with your view. While World of Warcraft’s storytelling differs from that of Warcraft III, many players find the narrative in WotLK engaging and well-constructed, especially in how it’s woven into the gameplay. If the storytelling in WoW doesn’t meet your expectations and leaves you consistently dissatisfied, may I ask why you continue to play? What keeps you engaged with the game despite your view that the story has always been lacking?
"Each and every one of those people are wrong.
WoTLK brought us ‘raid or die’ as a design philosophy, WoTLK brought us easy dungeons. WoTLK brought us homogeneralisation and WoTLK brought us ‘all previous content is worthless’. WoTLK even brought us the old Celestial Steed; (AKA: TRH) the first cash shop mount."
Claiming that every dissenting opinion is wrong isn’t a constructive approach. It’s important to acknowledge that the majority view often holds weight. In the case of WotLK, many players would argue that it was an era that significantly contributed to the richness of WoW’s universe. Single voices that claim otherwise are in the minority. While not every aspect of WotLK was perfect, suggesting improvements is more productive than dismissing the entire expansion’s contributions to the game.
"You didn’t even digest your own message. You deny WoTLK pathed the way for the modern game, yet continue to speak.
And no, I didn’t actually watch much of the retail panel. I listened to Christ Metzen for a while, but I’ve no interest in wasting my money on any of the new expansions."
You’ve misunderstood. My question about whether you’d fully considered my previous messages was in relation to the WoW saga discussion, not about WotLK’s influence on the current game. I’ve carefully considered both your words and mine, and I maintain that the experience WotLK offered differs significantly from what’s found in retail WoW today. There are alternative paths the game could have taken, which you seem to overlook.
“Legion retconned TBC, rather than expand upon it.”
You’re right; Legion retconned elements from TBC rather than expanding directly on them. Returning to our main topic, it’s key to recognize how WoW’s expansions, including WotLK,Legion have shaped the game’s trajectory in various ways.
“<.<”
Perhaps it’s time to move past the complaints and let others enjoy the game as they wish. I’m simply advocating for one permanent WotLK server, whereas your expectations still seem unclear, as you remain dissatisfied. What exactly are you seeking from WoW?
“Care to elaborate on the ‘lore’ part? Deathwing is an intergral part of Wrafcraft and he has a history that wow builds upon.”
Of course, you’re correct that Deathwing is a significant part of WoW’s history, though his story in Cataclysm didn’t resonate with me and many others.
“purely subjective. To a lot of players the golden era of wow was vanilla, to me it was TBC, to you it’s wrath. Why? Just because it had the most subs? That’s just using sub numbers to pad your argument. I do agree wow was at it’s peak popularity around wow, but that doesn’t say anything about the quality of the expansion that came before?”
While personally, and alongside the majority, I still regard WotLK as the pinnacle expansion, my arguments are plentiful. Yet, the most illustrative is the historical peak in subscriber numbers during that era, a metric grounded in solid data. I also cherished TBC and lamented the removal of its servers, which is why I’m advocating for the preservation of WotLK servers. Classic WoW didn’t captivate me in the same way, as it felt lacking in content compared to its successors.
“What complexity? 99% of players used the same build anyway, that was the reason blizz changed it. All the stuff you would take anyway to get to an impactful talent is still there, it’s just gained passively during leveling. Sure the RP aspect of clicking on a talent is gone but arguing over that goes a bit far imo.”
Actually, that step of streamlining talents was pivotal in shaping WoW into what it is today. Previously, we had a sense of progression with every level, choosing how to allocate talent points. It felt like we were actively shaping our characters. The simplification began there, arguably diminishing a layer of personal touch from character development.
“True about wrath, but also true about cata. The old gods were around before vanilla. You seem to know little of cata’s lore and why Neltharion is the way he is.”
It’s indeed true that Cataclysm’s lore, including Neltharion’s transformation into Deathwing, draws from long-established Warcraft history. However, when compared to WotLK, Cataclysm’s storytelling often feels lacking. WotLK had a narrative depth that engaged players deeply, with story arcs that had been developing for years. Cataclysm, despite its efforts, didn’t seem to capture the same level of narrative intricacy and emotional investment for many.
Neltharion was one of the five Dragon Aspects created by the titans to oversee Azeroth and its elements. As the Earth-Warder, he was empowered to protect the land and its deep places. Over time, the Old Gods’ influence corrupted him, culminating in his betrayal during the War of the Ancients where he used the Dragon Soul, later known as the Demon Soul, against both the Burning Legion and his fellow dragons.
After being driven into hiding, suffering from the schism within his mind and the betrayal of his noble purpose, Neltharion emerged as Deathwing. He became a symbol of cataclysm, reshaping Azeroth’s landscapes and threatening the very existence of life on the planet. His story is a tragic fall from a guardian to a bringer of apocalypse, showing how even the mighty can be corrupted and turned against those they once swore to protect. Neltharion’s tale serves as a grim reminder of the constant vigilance needed against the forces that seek to corrupt and destroy.
“Factually false. I can agree cata changed things up quite a bit after wrath, but starting in WoD, Legion, BfA, SL all share the same systems and path forward.”
The perception of discontinuity, particularly with skills and abilities in WoW, is shared by many. Each expansion, starting from Cataclysm, has indeed significantly reworked classes and systems, which can feel like a reset rather than a continuation of what was previously established in WotLK. This has created a sense of loss for players who enjoyed the depth and customization of earlier game versions.
“Again not true.”
Talent Overhauls: Post-WotLK, talents were simplified, notably in Cataclysm, with further streamlining in subsequent expansions. This often left players relearning classes each time.
Class Mechanics: New expansions frequently redefined class roles and abilities, sometimes removing iconic skills or altering class identities.
Leveling Experience: Level squishes and overhauls altered the leveling experience, making it feel disconnected from previous expansions.
Endgame Content: The focus on endgame often invalidated the old content, leading to a cycle of ‘out with the old, in with the new’ with each release.
These points illustrate a pattern of reinvention over expansion, creating a sense that each new release is a fresh start rather than a continuation.