You don’t need Spy for that.
You can’t mark enemy players.
Bartender (other mods are available) improves immersion for me, much neater UI. Really wouldn’t want to lose that.
Use addon get ban go cry forums typical
This. I cannot even imagine lookin for all the quests in a zone manuall. I’d rather sit in a dungeon grind the entire time. No, probably, I just wouldn’t level at all.
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In lot of games devs review addons before aprove. I think Blizzard shoud do it as well, specialy a PvP addons. Some addons offer some nice QoL improvements but some addons are on margin of fairplay.
PvE addons…because r. io score addon; WoW is proud to offer one of worst gaming comminity in galaxy; toxicity, discrimination and fake elitism on maximum, because this addon game become like second job. To join group one need to hand: marriage papers, stool sample, blood type, baptise list…people behave like they going to mission on Mars not play the game. Game become 2 hour looking for grp 30min play…and most pagan thing of all, because this addon people judge other person without trying him ! This addon need emergency ban if you ask me, its worst thing which ever hit the WoW. I did gossip with my neighboours and people who stop playing, most of them left the game because this addon.
PvP addons: can convert nub into elite pvp player, because those addons telling him evrything about his enemy cooldowns, in normal world he woud need to calculate those cooldowns in his head (which is pro), but in addon world it just show him, also because addons, arena sometimes feels very dull…because anyone do stuff perfect because addons asssist them. So overall PvP will be nire intresting and fair without some addons.
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I don’t think banning them all would improve the playing experience, but I do feel that a lot of them are too powerfull - especially Weakauras.
That’s easy to say but many addons have become necessary to play the game in certain sections - for example loot addons, DBM type addons, Honorspy, etc.
This !
You pinpoint here something that I claim Blizzard and most of the players - including you apparently - clearly don’t understand.
Part of Vanilla’s charm when it comes to pvp is that trying to make your opponent feel confused about the situation or trying to make him panick is also a valuable part of the gameplay. Sometimes you want to change your gameplay because you want to see what your ennemy is doing. Or you can perform an action to disturb your opponent, who will then have trouble seeing what you are doing. This is what allows a low level player to flee in STV, hiding begind trees and bushes. This is what allows a mage to hide into the bushes and cast fireballs. This is why some of us used norgenfogger elixir or played gnome. Trying to avoid panicking and managing pressure used to be part of the gameplay. When vision must be a conscious effort, thinking about what your enemy will see or not is an integral part of the pvp strategy. All of this is a long forgotten dimention of the game wich is non existant now. With that spy addon you could no longer hide. Hopefuly they’ve nered it.
Over time, more complete information has become available : the spy addon, timers and exact descripton for boss mechanics, castbars and castbars on top of the nameplates (with debuffs), timers for the player’s debuffs, target health - and in modern wow infinite range nameplates. A lot of that also goes through addons that display things in a practical and non intrusive way – preventing the players from panicking. Having a DBM/BW doing a countdown is far different from having to pay attention and stay focused.
I think that guessing right is also a skill and that having some ramdomness isn’t always bad. It force the players to adapt in real time which is also a skill. Seing what is happening in the whole mess, and then using the right spell is very different from having a UI wich displays very clearly and efficiently everything relevant, all the time at the same place and then using the right spell. Having a game wich force the player to be focused while playing, to think about what his ennemy will be able to see seems to me much more fun than bringing for the 6th expansion the super optimized UI I’ve made back in the SWP or ICC days.
Now, hopefuly they’ve nerfed spy but there are a lot of addons (or so called “QoL improvement” in the modern wow) who fit in the same category.
Immersion isn’t always about the stories, the music/esthetic or exploration. When a player is intensely focused on something like a combat he can feel deeply immersed. When the games force you to use your sense – sight and hearing – it’ll immerse the players no matter the narrative or artistic aspect. The more you force the players to keep paying attention to what is going on around them, the more you reinforce their immersion - that is the feeling that you are Inside the world. Examples :
- I’ve always felt that Stitches in Duskwood and the Fel Reaver of the Hellfire peninsula were making these zones feel more immersive while leveling.
- I can still remember fighting mimiron HM P4 and being strongly immersed. Why ? Because I couldn’t afford doing a single mistake – it would have killed me. I had to be fully aware and pay attention to what was going on around me. This is very different from most of the current mythic bosses where only mechanics that can be trivialy avoided can one shoot. Note that modern addons displaying things in a clear non intrusive way – like Big Wigs countdowns – clearly play a role here, lowering the need of awareness. (please don’t come here to talk about « difficulty »).
- One of the reason why world pvp was immersive is because you can hide or have to pay attention to keep track of your ennemies. Because you didn’t have infinite range super nameplates this have made vision and even hearing a key skill in Vanilla pvp. The spy addon ruin this aspect in Classic. Please don’t come here to say that it existed in Vanilla because in was less practical and few used it anyway.
- For example Half life Alyx is great with a proper VR headset but is a bad game without VR. You’ll tell me that this example isn’t relevant because wow isn’t a VR game. However this example shows (if it was still needed at that point ?) that the way the game allows you to see things is a key component of the gameplay and immersion.
- Instead of half life I could have talked about Metro Exodus : the lack of information makes the game much more immersive and. That’s the difference between a dull gameplay and something wich really force you to commit and pay attention - to live inside your character.
I’d sort the addons into these different categories :
- The ones who make social networks.
- The one who really improve the player’s ability in combat, allowing to see very easily some things or prevent him from panicking. That is these addons who “presend things an other way”.
- Leveling addons like Questie.
- RP addons like TRP
- Customisation and mini games addons.
I’m OK for 4) and 5) and few of the one of the second category - like bartender or move anything, maybe Grid, because I have to admit that making an efficient UI is also a skill and “fun” !
I’m definitely not OK with 1) and the addons of 2) who really change the way you play the game. DBM/BW, gladiatorloSA, weakauras, and all of these addons who’ve made Classic UI look TBC : debuff timer, castbars … just to name a few.
The 3) is a special one I won’t discuss right now.
Since Vanilla, many players have tried to build a perfect UI and take advantage of it. Competitive driven players were – and are – particulary aware of that, and this is the normal state of a game : if you want to compete you have to optimize. Some players have taken pleasure in customizing and improving their UI, or making addons. Addons are in some way the mean players use to keep their knowledge and avoid repeating the same mistakes, avoid having to make efforts to see and remember things, all of that to be fully focused on doing the best dps/heal numbers they can. It’s like a backpack they (mostly hardcore raiders, also pvpers) want to keep and bring with them in all the other expansion. I’m sure some hardcore raiders would claim that they would quit the game if their cherished addons were disabled. I think that there should be some room for the players to customize their UI, for example by allowing the players to move stuff on the screen or to add small things but addons like the recent BossMods, Weakaura, GladiatorloSA, nameplates with debuffs & castbars, Spy addons ruin the gameplay. Please, dont argue that some of these have existed in Vanilla. In fact the Vanilla version of these addons (assuming they’ve existed) were so primitive, hard to read and ineffective that they were for the most part useless. And btw, I’ve heavily used addons back in the days so I’m not some guy unable to evolve or who hates addons for whatever reason.
So, sure, Learning to customize your UI have been part of the journey of all the hardcore players. But is it more fun to play with WA/DBM/GladiatorlosSA/Spy etc ? Not really, it just gave you an edge over the noobs ; when there were a lot of them you can stay over the pack it was fun because you could crush them. Now it plague the gameplay and immersion more than anything else.
And all of this is also true for the “modern” wow. If Blizzard really wants to reinvent and innovate in their so called awesome mythic raids they’ll seriously have to think about that.
But you somehow understand that: Classic shouldn’t have dungeon finder even if it can be ignored by those that don’t like it.
If so then you are pretty selective in what you choose to understand and you want to have control of how others play 
Yes, how dare people make or do something social in an MMORPG.
I’m curious how WA changes how you play the game. It plays the exact same way, the only difference is now you can place stuff where you want instead of in the far end corner
No, I think you literally didn’t read what I posted and went on to write a completely irrelevant wall of text.
So let me try again: you don’t need Spy to have that information. Its all there in the combat log anyway.
I wrote that the way the informations are presented is a key part of the gameplay. I wrote that text to show how the way the informations are presented affect the gameplay, tactics, immersion and the player’s feelings. So looking at the combat log and using Spy are ofc totaly different things. But i’d be more fair to say that being forced to be focused or using Spy are two different things. Your answer just prove you don’t understand that.
Well that’s what addons do, they present information in a more convenient way, and Spy isn’t any different from others. So what exactly is your point then?
Read my “wall of text”, by thinking you can learn something from it and maybe you’ll understand my points.
Maybe it’s time to remember that something can be called a “social tool” all without encouraging social behaviours. We’re not talking about an extended friend list here.
For instance, what about the LFG addon ? Making grouping trivial isn’t exactly someting wich trend to bring people closer together.
If you think WA have a limited influence over the gameplay, either you have never used it much eitner you’ve been playing with it for so long you don’t even know what it means to play without.
Yeah, because standing for hours spamming a chat channel with “LFG dungeon” is very social.
I’ve never had more fun in my life and talked to more people then when I spam LF2M XXXXXX, gosh I just whisper everyone on the realm at that time to strike up a conversation and see what Y person is doing. Or the more real answer is you just write in LFG chat and then invite people who whisper you.
You also never answered the question to how it changes how you play the game. Guess you can’t
The real answer is : you’re leveling with other players, setting them in your friend list and then wanting to do dungeons with them. It is having to go in a guild to play with fellows. Haven’t you leveled this way ?
If the answer to your question weren’t in my original post I would have answered it.
Why would I bother answering someone who clearly have just skimmed what I wrote - the answers are there. Pulling out of all its context something and yelling for an apparent contradicion is easy but isn’t really moving the debate forward. You dont want to read it ? Fine, then don’t post.
I literally qouted you’re entire segment were you mentioned WA. It’s not out of context. Maybe you should know what you post?
I got 3 60s and soon my 4th, I haven’t added a single person I did any dungeons with on my friendlist cause there’s an abundance of players to pick from when writing in LFG channel
I think hilarious that the first thing you mention is logs, that’s not even an addon, lol.