This is purely because being a villain isn’t about being known. They can be made known, or they will find out eventually. It isn’t being withheld, but the idea is mostly that their views, or their desires are not necessarily perceived well by the larger community’s moral status.
Regarding this, I do sincerely believe that a villain doesn’t have to be known to have success, in the world. Yes, they can interact with the world, but it doesn’t have to lead to the necessary reveal that they’re, quite in fact, a villain. Mistakes and more can lead to the general reveal. But I think there’s nothing wrong with hiding in the shadows, slowly gaining power and not revealing your intent until much later - when you are almost certain of achieving it.
In some ways sure, but it can definitely depend on what you want out of the villain in question. One of my complaints with Deathwing for instance is that he had too much character instead of being more akin to a force of destructive nature.
Rarely will you end up in an RP situation against something like Deathwing but there is definetly something to be said for fighting something whose mindset is utterly alien and irrational, a being of nothing but rage and a burning desire to destroy.
This is very true yes. I just personally find it a little dull to see a large portion of the rper villians to be nothing but brute and gore and proclaiming how evil they are, but there is definatly room for those villians, and any type. Nor is it their job to please me
As long as people are happy with what they play that is the essential part.
As for Blizzard, I agree with you on Deathwing, and Its kinda a peeve for me that the old gods have this issue too. Instead of being impossible to comprehend, and eldritch and just…well alien,(the faceless are a bit better) but the old gods themselves just…in personalities and voices just seem to be…dudes. In monster bodies, but with very human villian desires, motives, goals and ways of going about things.
This is probably where the core of our disagreement lies, which is always good to know. I’m all for having potential stored up for later reveals, but spending years never so much as alluding to its existence? Definitely not my cuppa tea. New potential usually comes by means of IC encounters, echoing back to that team sport analogy from earlier.
It’s not about being known, but more… well if someone schemes and acts in ways that most would take issue with, you’d have to be a consistent mastermind for there to never be any sort of hint as to your character’s true nature. Far be it for me to say that isn’t possible, it just doesn’t sound like an exercise with much enjoyment to it. Each to their own though.
Absolutely agreed. It’s the lack of even a subtle build-up that I have a hard time in finding compelling, or even to have much a point.
Again, just my two cents and I’m happy leaving it at a “agree to disagree”.
tbf I find too much of AD to be intimidating and play my villains hidden and just aiding other villains these days. Sucks but that’s just how I roll now. I’m a useless.
Yes yes yes, I agree with this - no villain will ever be able to be perfect just as no person is perfect. Villains usually express their thoughts in some shape or form. I thought you had meant that a villain ought to be known to the world as in the “wide” world - which would mean the server. That’s a misunderstanding on my part!
I doubt it’s much of an “agree to disagree” scenario by now, but perhaps there’s been a little miscommunication.
I understand, however, what you mean now by people making themselves known to the world, I agree, even if in a smaller form. That’s what I am attempting with my own, villainous character for instance - yesterday they had managed to convince a kaldorei that the night elves are too stuck in their ways and they will always be at conflict with the forsaken – which is why, he should learn to adapt and my character would show him how. (By abusing his misplaced trust and actually using him for her own gains). And that’s something that he could’ve seen through, were it not for the emotional turmoil the character was going through.
An issue with doing morally ambiguous acts IC is the ooc outrage it causes if those acts aren’t completely in line with the very stereotypical image of the race of your character.
Wish I could just roleplay my character without people melting down in discords or saying I don’t know Tauren lore.
Absolutely agreed with this - every character should have their own personalities and not fall too deep into stereotypes. That’s what makes them different and special, no?
They ain’t worth your time really. You have your character’s back story and if you don’t want to tell them it, don’t. I know the feeling though. I got harrassed for ‘bdrp’ and it’s liek “do u know the lore of my char? no? ok then shush and lemme do me.”
I think a big issue with villain RP specifically is a lack of appreciation for a villain bowing out when necessary. A villain exists to be beaten - they exist as an antithesis to a hero, and their defeat is in many ways integral to fulfilling the story of the hero.
However, WoW as a game is something that people pour an immense amount of time and effort into, whether it’s PvP, PvE, or RP, and it can be very difficult to just let go of a character or an idea. In many ways a good villain exists to prop up a hero at the cost of being expendable - it gives the arc a sense of closure and gravity. Please note that this isn’t always the case, but a recurring villain has a habit of losing their impact on successive appearances.
Too often I’ve seen villains just… Keep coming back. Again and again. And it weakens the villain, it weakens the struggles the hero(es) went through against the villain, because you’ve invested X hours to get your character to level cap and allow them to RP in the current areas without getting splattered by angry -level mobs.
I think it depends.
if you are a Slippery Shane (translate: someone who is just really good at escaping) then you may have heroes evolve an obsession with finally getting their hands around his neck.
on the other hand, if you are just another “'last time was merely a set back” then it gets dull real fast.
There’s definitely villains were it can work, sure, but even they have a shelf life. Frankly I think it would’ve been exhausting if the Baudelaire’s were never rid of Count Olaf, even if he was entertaining and drawn out. Then you get villains that stick around so long you start wondering if they are actually villains anymore. Some days Bowser kidnaps Princess Peach and lures Mario into a series of traps and challenges. Some days they play golf.
I would usually call that the “Sunday cartoon pit” its the pit you as a villain need to avoid falling into every time the heroes find you, and you have to make your escape. do it wrong just once and you fall in and become a cartoon parody of yourself.
It’s been a while since I last RP’d anything but a criminal character, so I can’t speak on behalf of those evil big supervillain types who can decimate cities with bodily functions alone.
But… As for criminal RP, I don’t really see the same patterns as I have read about in this thread when my character makes her way to the city to do acts of crime. When it comes to a win, I guess it boils down to how big a win you’d want. You can’t win every time, but you having someone break your nose while still leaving the city with a bit of coin in your pocket is a win in my book.
I find that if you approach people with crime, without trying to force it on them as if you have a right to mug/rob/scam or otherwise steal from the character, you’ll generally be met with positive response. At least in Orgrimmar. I recall my Stormwind days, where trying to pickpocket someone was more likely to earn you someone’s attempt at taking your head off. It’s a bit of a bad cycle though. Overly obnoxious criminal RP leads to people not bothering with those who might be trying to do it respectfully instead… which then leads to people having to go the obnoxious route to try and get something done which then leads to… and so on and so forth.
I think my very tired point is something along the lines of: I get the impression that most people here only have terrible villain/criminal experiences, but it is not really a serverwide thing I feel like, at least not on Horde. If anything, I’d encourage people to welcome more crime into their hearts. You won’t know if the common thief might actually offer up some interesting RP if you refrain from dismissing them on OOC bias from the first word.
I think i shall give my regards and mention…
Hands up for the lovely villain guild, Hand of Zul.
They are villains, but lovely OOC, and Awesome bunch to interact with, they really do villain RP well!
(Not really advertising, i am not even a member, but wanted to mention them as an example of Awesome villain RP on Ad)
I agree - but I’ll also have to ask; come back from what? Surely, the villain is not some top-tier dungeon boss just sitting in his lair, twirling his moustache, waiting for the “good guys” to show up so that he can make his dastardly escape, only to find himself a new lair and rince and repeat.
What constitutes as coming back? Is it the act of being alive, wandering the town in which they live, or is it the repetition of old schemes//creation of new ones that will bring about the wrath of those same “good guys” that defeated them last time? What are they coming back from?
I’m just getting a bit of a cartoony-vibe from the idea that they’d “come back”, as if the last time they were around they fell into a volcano Feel free to clarify, I’m probably just missing the point. (I’m also thinking of Skeletor through this whole reply, so there’s that)
Coming back from defeat, mostly, and whatever defeat happens to mean in that context - thrown in the Stockades? They broke out or had their henchmen/followers break them out. Killed/crushed/blown up/incinerated? Somehow they came back from the dead. Trapped in another time or on another world? Guess what - they found a way back!
And from my experience it doesn’t usually stem from a desire to further enhance the experience and story between hero and villain, but out of a fondness the villain RPer has for their character and a lack of willingness to let them go and end their story arc in a way that satisfies everyone involved.
And you’re right to call it cartoony because it is cartoony. People shoot for Sauron or Vader or Khan to try and make these memorable, impactful villains, but I’ve seen it so many times since I started RPing years ago - the recurring villain who becomes more of an annoyance or hinderance than a genuine threat to respond to, like a lot of superhero villains or, yup, cartoon villains.
I’ve warbled on way too long but during so I thought of an analogy that might help support my point - I had a cat that loved playing with a toy on a piece of string. I’d make him chase it and jump for it and tease the cat, but in the end I always let the cat get the toy. If I didn’t, he’d get bored and wander off. I always felt that outcome wasn’t really all that satisfying for the cat! I think that exchange reflects the hero/villain dynamic in some ways? I, the villain, am providing conflict and entertainment for the hero, the cat, and we’re all happier when the hero wins and the villain has played their part without overstaying their welcome.
In conclusion, Libya is a country of contrasts, I like cats, and it’s never wrong to think about Skeletor.
That adds up, and I agree I’ll also like to add that if the villain is a character on it’s own right, then it’s perfectly fine for them to continue existing and all that, but perhaps with a change of scenery, and growth. I.E: Doing something else completely, and not going back to fight/antagonize the very group that overcame them in the first place.
So: “He-Man has bested me, and I find myself in this strange new land. Ultimately I will become a farmer. Gone are the days of Nyahahaha.”
And not: “He-Man has bested me. I shall escape this strange new land, and return to fight him once more! Nyahahahah!”
![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
![:skull:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/skull.png?v=6" ":skull:")
-level mobs.
Feel free to clarify, I’m probably just missing the point. (I’m also thinking of Skeletor through this whole reply, so there’s that)