Now that enough time has passed it’s worth looking at what should be incredibly disturbing to most people - wow players justifying real life atrocities in order to maintain their fandom for Sylvanas.
For the purposes of setting up the lore and Sylvanas as “the villan”, Blizzard pulled out everything they possibly could in order to make her fit the role they wanted;
Unprovoked war, imprisonment and torture, mass genocide, weapons of mass destruction - humanity’s worst atrocities were rolled out to set this up.
Rather than accepting that this was the case and still maintaining a “well i like her anyway and it’s fun to RP”, you ended up with players bit by bit justifying torture, justifying genocide in order to maintain the idea they were not wrong about sylvanas.
Should that not be disturbing to those of you who did that? How easy it is to get you to think that way? Blizzard deliberately set out to demonstrate to you that she is the “bad guy” but rather than accept the new facts you stuck to it no matter what justifying any level of atrocity.
I mean, there would not be so many problems if the devs would
Commit to a specific vision of Sylvanas. Be it anti-hero, outright villain, victim of manipulation. Just pick one, and go in depth. Things would be clear, could be nuance in that area, and would have way less uproar, instead of irritating everyone like now.
add and explore in-game views and ideologies. Instead the devs themselves, specifically Golden and Danuser, use irl morals to talk about the story, so yes, some people also view these stories through irl lenses, because that is what the devs request by following this route.
It’s on a border between comedy and tragedy, that for all the speaking about “moral compasses” and “moral lessons”, the story is utterly morally bankrupt. And the voices “of reason and morality” only act so in the story that goes out of its way to give them preferrencial treatment and avoid all of the consequences.
No. Just admitting that in-universe the take of Tyrande is reasonable and justified, and have both sides follow their truths and goals would be enough. And no ignoring the consequences, like with alt-Draenor Grom.
The moment you discuss Warcraft lore, everything you say is valid from the perspective of a world :
that is fictional and set in a fantasy universe
that is literally called “Warcraft”, meaning warfare is basically everything it has ever known
in which faction pride is the main driving force. Faction pride is something that the devs encourage because it keeps players involved and enthusiastic. They need it and feed it any way they can, through characters, cinematics, symbols, lore
With all that in mind, I don’t think it’s reasonable to call Sylvanas apologism “disturbing”. First I don’t believe for a SECOND that writers were surprised there ended up being so many Sylvanas loyalists among Horde players. If that came out as a surprise to them after everything they did to make her so badass, after everything they did to ensure that faction pride was functional, then they really must question themselves. Second, and no matter how stale that sounds, fiction is fiction. If I say “Torturing X character was the right choice”, my opinion can only be judged from the moral compass the ingame perspective allows me to have. In my case, I play the militaristic faction and I yell “FOR THE HORDE” for a living ; in real life, I’m a hopeless anarchist that grows potatoes and couldn’t possibly experience patriotism towards an expansionistic administration.
Not that I think the relationship between fictional morals and real life morals is not interesting. Both can certainly be intertwined from time to time. If I’m being honest my choice of the tribalistic faction probably reflects my real life opinions on certain matters. But let’s not judge each others’ moral value on the basis of takes on Warcraft lore - that won’t lead us anywhere
Nobody forced the devs talk about irl morality or to call Anduin a male role model. They did. Hence here we are. The in-universe factions and races do not have consistent and developed views, politics, economy, etc.
Nope. The current approach of the current dev team is that “only together” while bashing the factions at every corner, and praising Anduin for forgiving everything while paying the price in blood of others.
What faction pride? Name me the expansion that would have as it’s core a message of “the factions are the core, it’s good to keep them”.
Cause all I see since WoD unquestionably bashes even a hint at not being obedient and all forgiving, and praises those who seek for peace no matter the cost, regardless of how much damage it does to the game and factions.
And when was the last time the story telling something like that? The only one I could thing of was 8 years ago:
They do not “feed” nor reinforce the factions, not allow them to be heroes. Only heroes praised are those who say, “only together” without gowing all-in on the topic and finally allowing the players to actually do it (and thus lay down the end of factions as the devs show in practice they want).
Well, I give this troll attempt a 1/10. You tried.
It’s safe to say that most of us are role model citizens and would not hurt anyone, ever.
You see, unlike you, I can make a clear distinction between fantasy and real life.
Hurting pixels is different than hurting real people. Nobody here supports real life atrocities.
But I’ll entertain you and highlight a few aspects of this game that are completely unacceptable in real life:
duel to death
slaying countless living creatures, ranging from animals to humanoids
polluting the environment with chemicals and other devices
totalitarian regimes
enslavement and concentration camps
torture
Etc
I don’t know mate, if you’re so worked up about Sylvanas fans, maybe you’re playing the wrong game, just saying.
She should have been dead on broken shore, thats as far as i can go admitting anything that involves her.
Its still a game.
Its still fictional.
Its still called WAR-craft for a reason.
Even star WARS have the word WAR in it therefore fanatic fans dont start SJW-ing the Sith just because they feel entitled to OR just because their EGO was shattered.
Its been 1.5 year, you guys still havent grown up. Its absolutely obvious that you find cheap excuses in “GENOCIDE” or “CRIME” to hide your shattered EGO and noone buys that.
No1 asked the devs to use irl reasoning for the in-game events. They did, so here we are, in the situation on their request.
Once we move past “only together” narrative, I’ll have all the reasons to agree with that. So far the story is about how war is bad, and we must all be together, of both uraveling BfA, and what I see throughout Shadowlands.
Same could be said about Sylvanas. Or Anduin. Or Genn, or Baine. And so on.
Star Wars was explicit about characters and motivations throughout it’s history (did not pay any attention to the franchise since they sidelined the expanded universe).
Who is sith in WoW?
I tried the retail version again last summer, when I saw the devs touting “we’re listening to the feedback”. Didn’t play since MoP till that time, so can’t relate.
Not really. For me it’s about false advertisement being unacceptable. If the product is sold on marketing focusing on the tragedy, and is presented as the seeking of “justice”, then the only acceptable option to me is when the devs tell the story for which they took money.
It does not mean that this is the story that should be told to the horde though. Each side can have their truths and goals.
Since the devs themselves decided to pull in “war crimes” analogies, and irl logic, it is only reasonable to pressure the devs (without going after them personally) to execute on it consistently, or drop the premise, and stop using the irl morals for a video game entirely. Not sitting on whatever chair is convenient at the time.
well he/she does have a point, most take it as rp as it should be, but there are those who take it to far, where it more or less comes atleast boredline approval of real life things, even a few posted in this thread that are close to be fanatical
You alliance guys been asking that for almost 2 years, how come and now you became nobody?
When your faction is loosing, it doesnt mean its bad.
Or Jaina Or your king, but you already answered it yourself.
It has been the old gods, then became illidan, then we moved to deathwing, then to your shiny prince arthas, 2 XPC’s vs the burning legion, back to old gods in BFA and now the jailer?
With a few words.
What would be your ideal feedback? Kill sylvanas because she shattered your EGO?
Again un-acceptable to you because your EGO was shattered, to me it was the best by far.
Do you get it now?
Its not only about what alliance wants, we horde exist as well.
You are confusing you with the devs.
Devs gave you a fictional story, you named it “war crime” and “genocide” because again your EGO was shattered.
Alliance fanatics need to grow up and learn how to lose.
No no no.
When they do what they blame “its justified”.
Cant forget that worgen fanatic that was crying about sylvanas and a couple of months later made a thread demanding horde to be dismantled and orcs to be used as slaves in their constructions…
They are always OK even when they speak like adolf.
I don’t want to name and shame here but they know who these posters are. And they know they often cross the line with insults and personal attacks, most of the time unprovoked.
But yeah, hypocrisy is strong on these forums.
How about we respect each other opinions and discuss lore like adults, because our in game allegiances don’t define who we are as real people behind the screen.
It does not. That mean that it should be portrayed as such. Saurfang is a villain, and Anduin is betrayer (# hot takes).
I would not mind.
Oh, so what is the point of mentioning in the context of factions then? Do we have “old god” faction?
Do not run away from consequences.
Give the story depth, instead of “a little bit of everything”.
Make the world of Azeroth the main character again, with “heroes” like Anduin or Sylvanas a furniture used to progress the story of the world.
Instead of “if the story is good, it’s ok to bend the narrative”, consider continuity to be one of top priorities.
Remove “unquestionably correct” answers / characters from the story.
Really scary things, right?
So, me advocating for the horde having the horde themes to be explored, and instead of “saving Tyrande / elf souls” to have more of shamanistic orc/tauren stories or loa ones, is anti-horde?
Call it whatever you like. If you promote false advertising, I only can hope you remain consistent and do it with other aspects of life too.
No. When I hear Danuser talking about moral lessons, I do not imagine myself sitting in the dev chair.
It is only fair for both sides to have some of that from time to time.
How people feel is a valid feedback.
If I could go back in time, I would try to convince the elf fans to focus themselves on the devs instead of fighting forum wars with other players, to be more thoughtful with language used, because offensive language would be easy excuse to ignore their feedback. But also to try to showcase the other players that there is no difference in the underlying problems between NElf story arc handling, what was done to forsaken, horde, orcs, currently shaping up with alt-Draenor draenei, etc.:
deconstruction of what people like, shock events to attract sales short term without considering a decent pay off, convenience in the narrative for what to do now, regardless of the consequences, etc.
They are not the first “victim” of terrible writing approach, but the first to really cause long-lasting effects, including the devs. So, if that would be turned in productive direction instead of bashing each other, that could’ve been the 1st real chance to influence the narrative and push it to be better.
But oh well, instead a bunch of NElf players were insulting the others, and a bunch of other players tried not really to silence, but to tone down the pressure of night elves. IMO which was bad. They could’ve been the frontier of making story better with being the first group to actually push hard enough so that the devs could not ignore it.
We know that BFA played the shock card and really hurt the lore for many of the existing factions.
I don’t dismiss the night elf fans, just their hateful comments. I also don’t shed a tear about Teldrassil because I don’t necessarily care. I do understand other people do and I respect their stance.
You see, just like in game NPC, players too have their own perspective. If someone wishes to wipe out the Forsaken as a race because they hate them, I say kudos to you man. Just don’t go to absurd lengths like keeping another player accountable for a story that they had no hand in writing.
This game has been about allegiances from the beginning. It’s been about war, drama and murder. Yes, Teldrassil has been exceptionally bloody but I think my character has more humanoids killed than the entirety of night elves in this game.
Nobody is a saint in this game, you all did dirty stuff, let’s get real. And you did it for a cause you thought was worth it. I wish more people remembered that.
Looks at praises of Crossroads cinematic and ideas, by the devs.
Unfortunately, that does not seem how the story goes.
That was not a good take, that prevented a potential push for the narrative to pay attention to what made WoW what it is, instead of the current fanfic approach. A shame. But maybe next time there will be a chance to put all the focus on the creators of bad stories, than on the players who have no choice but to either play through the content that is available, or quit the game.
Not really. One of my gripes is that the game goes out of its way to praise a very specific ideas / characters, and demonises the factions as a source of only problems.
I would prefer to stick to it. When I’ve listened to Remornia for the 1st time, I though “now that is what I need”
like that.