I think there’s some confusion in general here in the responses. This is not a lore debate or “who was right or wrong” in the confines of the game. Saying that eg; You wish the horde would slaughter the gnomes or something makes zero comment on you as a person at all. The assumption is that your’e talking as you put it “within the confines of the game”.
I for instance think it would make for interesting lore if sections of the Alliance became disillusioned with the cycle of war and suing for peace at the earliest opportunity and instead becoming obsessed with warfare themselves.
I’m talking about people very clearly trying to justify REAL life events in order to try keep their real life moral compass consistent with that of the games.
eg: Someone saying “all wars have deaths, torture is just another means”. This kind of person is very clearly talking about wars outside the game in order to try to keep their game view consistent.
I think that it’s pretty disturbing that a heavy section of the player base resorted to constantly trying to justify the worst aspects of humanity (in real life) to try to keep their real life moral compass and their “game moral compass” matched up. Rather than just accepting that these things are clearly separate. Does that make the point clearer as i get the impression people thought this was a lore argument
I’m preparing my own forum crusade by the end of Shadowlands. If Sylvanas falls and the Forsaken get no resolve I will personally burn these forums before I get perma banned. I will go down with the ship, but not without a fight.
I suggest you all do the same, if you want some changes.
It’s pretty annoying tbh. They’re going out of their way to create a spiteful and angry community. Maybe there’s wisdom in this.
After all, it’s what players care about the most. The Sylvanas topics are by far the most heated and popular around here.
That makes for a very very small minority and these people exist on both sides.
If someone ever says something like that, please report them immediately.
Really doesn’t seem to be that small a minority if you go back through previous threads. And no you can’t be reported for that kind of thing.
It’s more to point out how easily people can be manipulated into thinking that horrific acts are actually perfectly acceptable as long as they want to maintain a particular view
To be honest, I haven’t seen that many of these people and I religiously follow Sylvanas related topics.
I’m pretty sure that references to real life crimes can be reported if the poster is trying to put them in a positive light as they can be offensive to a certain group of people (like nasism for example). That word is even censored.
There’s miss understanding from both sides. I may be too innocent here, but I truly believe that people who post here are harmless and kind.
Sometimes discussions heat up and we might say things we don’t mean. Or I hope so.
Are people like you making nonsensical strawman threads about points no one has ever done.
Your hate bone for one of the most beloved and oldest characters of the franchise is on it’s own weird, but hey it is what it is.
Making such baiting troll posts only to go once more against Sylvanas fans, because the butchering of her character wasn’t enough yet. No you had to go the extra mile, in such a over the top way it’s disturbing.
The Forsaken fan base has suffered enough. This is silly and out right disgusting.
BFA promo was fight for justice?
What are you talking about, your excuses are hilllarious.
Its actually the opposite.
Since MoP for saurfang/baine/thrall and since legion we know that boyking will lie to us 3 times. Nothing new.
There was always conflinct in between.
Even when the traitor saurfang convinced us to help you clean your prince mess, you attacked us inside ICC and you where killing belfs at the same time WHILE WE cleaned up your mess.
You have to have consequences and you are not going to have any because ITS FICTIONAL. That is what you still refuse to accept.
You dont get to pick your opponents reaction in your actions.
When it suits you, you compare everything to real life. WHen it doesnt you forget about it right?
It was not false advertising.
Nobody told you that you are going to win the horde in BFA and save the world, you whine because your fragile alliance EGO got shattered.
Indeed, therefore get ready because blizzard owes us a Siege of Stormwind since MoP, then you see how it feels.
Sylvanas is over 20 years old as a character, right? So no it’s not surprising or anything else to me that some of her fans want to rationalize what she is doing, after following her for years, maybe even close to 2 decades.
It’s still fiction and she really is a beloved character. Blizzard butchering her and destroying her character during BfA isn’t going to change this for everyone.
Your link to real world things, is unfortunate, strange and something her fanbase certainly isn’t doing.
Except even a cursory look at threads from a few years ago about her actions very clearly show a large section of the fanbase (at least those on threads) doing so…
Quote me those things. You clearly are making links to things that aren’t there.
Rationalasing Sylvaanas action is not defend tutoure otr anything other insane nonsnece you can think off.
On the other hand, there were Alliance players defending Alleria and Turalyon torturing civilians and I don’t see concerned about that at all.
Your attempt at trolling an already down trodden fan base is simply bad.
I’m not sure what the whataboutism is designed to prove here. I’m not going to go finding links for you because i can say with 99% certainty that you will have either an excuse for what i find or say so what even if it is 100% exactly what you’d be looking for. You can find this yourself if you care
What does it change to the fact that this universe is one of warfare ? Ever since the Great Sundering 10k years ago it has been slaughter after slaughter, genocide after genocide, planetary threat after planetary threat. My point is, you can’t possibly judge such world with our morals, which is what OP does
The very concept of the game encourages faction pride. It’s red vs blue. Red is tribal, is a bunch of outcasts and has a culture of pragmatism, retaliation and banding together ; blue is the traditional European fantasy setting, with stable monarchies and advanced science and military technology, and values morality and nobility of intentions over everything else. The two are polar opposites, two opposite takes on fantasy, and two opposite takes on society. You pick one, you grow attached to it, and you fight the other one to the death.
I disagree that “better together” is the message they’ve been forcing on us recently. The pattern has always been : “we fight each other off, then the big cosmos villain shows up and we team up against him because we have no choice, then we go back to fighting each other off”. BFA was about faction pride : to me the message behind allied races was clearly “there’s no staying neutral anymore, Azeroth is divided into two factions, choose your side and survive with them”. Yes it ended up with the Alliance and the Horde working together, but was it because they wished to do so and thought it was the right thing to do ? Nope, they were just like “Yo this Sylvanas girl sucks, let’s overthrow her”. Just like they did with Garrosh.
In my opinion nothing screams “only together” in the recent developments. We just happen to tap into cosmological and universe-ending stuff on a quite regular basis now. And Azeroth has been practicing “let’s temporarily team up against this greater evil” as a national sport for a while now - so far it never changed anything about the relationship between the Horde and the Alliance.
EDIT : My impression was that Baine, the spokesperson of the “better together” idea Horde side, has been ridiculed by BFA in some scenes. When he suggests in front of Talanji that we should negociate with the Alliance just after it raided the capital and murdered her father and king, he just looks dumb. He’s quickly silenced. When he returns Derek to the ennemy because somehow Zombie Proudmoore is more than he can bear, he just looks dumb. So there are DEFINITELY contradictory messages being sent
It’s to prove one simple point. You only want to troll and trash Sylvanas fans, as if the story wasn’t already bad enough for them. You have different standards for them than for let’s say fans of Alleria, or Turalyon.
Once more, no her actions are not used to excuse real life war crimes. Insane.
We had factions from BOTH sides dispensing said sort of practices at will (against each other or against third parties).
And yet, it wasn’t necessarily portrayed as having them act villainous.
It was often treated as part of the natural development of fantasy or fictional races.
The “Hero” or “Villain” tags were given almost arbitrarily by the writers depending on the sort of story they wanted to tell each time.
So yeah, this whole thread was but a case of “Just accept that what you like is bad. Argue against it, and you are advocating for Real Life atrocities”.
In short, the sort of bs certain players like to throw around in order to build an artificial moral high ground for themselves or their game preferences, while throwing what they think is some “intelligent” jab, at those that disagree.
Basically, by going full ad hominem.
You understand that Blizzard is not trying to create a “both sides did bad things” scenario right? You understand the entire narrative story arc (whether redemption or villain) depends on making Sylvanas out to be as evil as possible…that’s been the entire point of how they’ve written the lore. But again you’re drawing me into the lore which is not the point.
The point (yet again) is people making excuses in real life for in-game atrocities in order to maintain the view of a fictional character as “not a bad guy”. That one or two people here seem intent on providing as many excuses as possible seems to start to make the case for me although the cases i’m referring to are numerous and extreme. Any attempt to justify torture in the world to justify a character you like is extreme as is any downplaying of genocide of WMD use.
You can embrace as much as you want that lore there’s nothing wrong with it. You can say “death to all x faction” etc and there’s nothing wrong with that. But you start to justify certain actions as morals within the boundries of your own real world?..now that…that SHOULD be alarming (as was the entire point of the post). People demonstrably did this and if you’re honest, you may even have done it yourselves…
This is a fantasy world.
Justifying the actions of fictional races can be done, by using the standards set by said fictional setting.
Torture, genocide and WMDs, regardless of how much people insist on turning them into taboo words, are dispensed on a regular basis by both the heroic and villain cast or races/characters.
For something that apparently is so usual, i’m having a hard time finding any of it around here.
In order to back up your words, you may want to bring actual sources/proof.
Otherwise, all of this sounds as cheap baiting and trolling.
So yeah. you should probably do as were told here, and start bringing examples of it:
Geez, I wonder if this is how some past writers and pioneers of fantasy writing had to go through during their time…
I’ll be honest, without pointing out the obvious here, I can freely link more threads on those bashing Sylvanas with IRL Death threats, unreasonable instances such as dismantling an entire half of playerbase, demanding said half of playerbase should unsub.
etcetera.
I mean, i’m not going to take sides here as a clarification. I couldn’t care less where Sylvanas, Tyrande or all the Night Elves will go, but I do care when the response I get when requesting for an explanation of such unwarranted hatred to the point of IRL immoral comparison is pretty much a range of demanding that I should play Alliance and delete the characters of my favourite faction that I have been working on for years on end just to please someone who struggles to differentiate fictitious material from reality.
Further clarification: Yes, this counts to the number of Horde players who think and do the same. Not a funny act in any level or caliber.
P.S If there’s a need to ask, yes, I will link them.
I have absolutely no idea why this seems to be a concept that is so difficult to grasp…we are talking about people attempting to come to terms with actions taking place in a fictional world by trying to justify these same actions in the real world in general. Talking about justifying genocide or justifying torture simply because you can’t separate the morality of two different worlds is the topic.
Go back to threads from 2018 and you will see these kings of posts. If you have to actually downplay genocide or torture (at all) then that’s the point where we’ve reached a disturbing trend.
Rather than come to terms with the fact that you’re liking who blizzard are building as the villian (which is perfectly fine - nothing wrong with that) instead players are attempting to justify the actions using a real world morality system…that should be problematic…not sure why that’s so difficult to see or why rampant “whataboutery” is an answer to anything
