So basically Disc is bad because not many players play it, even tho the class is (at least right now) being the picked healer for the highest runs?
Would you not determine the (lack of) viability of a class when it actually can’t succeed at a certain level?
Why would you even care if they are meta tho?
In reality, the keys the majority plays, almost every single rshaman I met so far, was horrible. They can’t handle any stress situation without tide/link. The game the people play at high levels, is not reality for like at least 95% (even higher) of players. Especially if you pug. So why even sweat about it?
The only real issue in M+ we are having right now (besides the lack of actual affixes) is that people simply turn off their brain and blindly follow what streamers and content creators tell them to follow.
Right now I’d say the peak for most people is somewhere around 11-12 and this is easily healable on any healer. People just need to stop being brainless bots who are too afraid to make their own experiences. I just did 11 SV earlier with a Demo Warlock. The spec is considered C tier, yet the guy was top dps…
All these tier lists and meta non-sense does simply not apply to the gameplay of the most people. I just can’t understand why everyone is so crazy about what’s meta and not…
Disc is not bad. It is just worse than Resto Shaman because Disc lacks the toolkit and the ability to play with a variety of different classes.
Any healing class is viable to do a +17 in time right now. The top players simply don’t even attempt it because Resto Shaman is so insanely strong, with Disc being the second best option. You have to remember that the top players are a tiny amount of people. Microscopically so. There are literally only dozens of them, that’s it.
I don’t really care much about this meta topic. It just came up and some misinformation was spread which I shared my differing opinion on.
What you said about horrible players in regular m+ is mostly true, but it doesn’t matter, because I would still prefer those bad players play an overpowered healing class instead of a weaker healing class. It increases the chances of success thanks to numbers alone. I’m glad they all rerolled to Resto Shamans. In m+ I’d rather have Resto Shamans who turn off their brains than Holy Priests who turn off their brains.
I think “attempt” is the wrong word here because not only do they attempt, they also succeeded already.
I absolutely do remember that, which is why I said that meta should be irrelevant for most of us. What makes Rshaman S tier for the top players, is something most pugs can not even replicate. Not only will the average player already struggle with throughput, the average player has to use the full toolkit on top of that. How are they gonna do that? The average player is not doing +12 keys for a reason.
It absolutely matters. What are you gonna do with an “overpowered” Rshaman who can only pump 600k overall when your group (be it poorly execution of mechanics or anything else) requires at least 800k overall hps? You don’t need the utility of Rshaman in every dungeon, if anything you probably don’t even need it in most dungeons.
What is the point of taking S (or A, depends on tierlist) tier frost dk, if he only does 1,5 mil overall, while the C tier demo warlock does 2 mil.
Two donkeys on S tier classes + Aug are not gonna do anything useful. In fact, all the runs I played so far, you rather want to avoid the S tier classes. I rather take a Ret with me than a Shaman or DK player.
Weak is relative, which is why I find Rshamans bad, specifically for pugs. Pugs mostly need throughput but shaman lacks exactly this once tide/link is on CD. If I have a clean run where throughput is not required, then Rshaman is not required too. Usually the group already has enough interrupts and CCs. What is the Rshaman gonna do on top of that? Damage? Their damage is not as good as MW monk or Disc.
That’s the thing. It does not. And I do not mean that offensive, people like you are the issue in M+ pug world. You know something is meta and ignore all the important information around it. Just because Rshaman is meta, it doesn’t mean it’s good in everything and even more important it does not mean the majority of players can utilize all of that. The opposite is the case.
I’d simply prefer any healing class but with brain on.
A Rshaman with brain off will perform just as poor as Holy Hriest with brain off. But you will have different pulls knowing you have a Holy Priest. With Rshaman you are having different pulls again, expecting him to utilize his kit, which will not happen. So even tho you are playing with a Rshaman, you will be pulling like you are playing with a Holy Priest. In the end it’s not really changing anything.
There is too much to respond and I’m just honestly gonna say that I don’t care enough to refute it all. I’m just gonna say that I mostly disagree because you missed some of my points entirely.
That would only treat the symptoms while the core problem remains. Not good. We should instead demand better class balance from Blizzard to fix this problem at its root. It doesn’t matter anyway, because neither will happen.
Why ? They have been doing class balance since for ever. And lets be honest here: “Perfect” class balance will never exist. Therefore, a “meta” will always exist. And because idiotic “meta slaves” will always exist, we are back to square 1.
The only way to break the cycle is to reward people playing off-meta specs. And this is the easiest solution.
Nobody requests perfect class balance, because that is simply impossible. What we should expect is good class balance, but we are very far away from that. Some classes and specs perform at below 80% compared to other classes and specs in m+ content right now. That’s horrendously bad balance.
Your way to “break the cycle” could almost invite Blizzard to leave specs as imbalanced as they are. That’s not a solution. That’s ignorance towards the core problem.
Yeah, but you underestimate the work that entails. What is “performance” according to you ?
I can give you a specific example: Performance wise, PEvoker heals 20% more than anyone else. And has a fantastic toolkit for M+. But… it cant dispel curses or poisons. AND Aug exists.
I can give you another example. Mages currently perform 20% less than a Ret Paladin. But mages are some of the top pics, while Rets arent. That is because Ret has fantastic AoE, but mages have better burst priority damage. How do quantify “performance” in this case?
So what now ? How do you measure “performance” ?
One thing blizzard could do is normalize raid buffs. That would go a long way to smoothing out the transition.
By normalization I mean this: A mage gives 3% Intelect. A warrior gives 5% AP. You normalize that by saying that mages AND warriors give 3% main stat. Or… DH gives 3% magical damage. Monks give 5% phisical damage. You normalize that to: DH AND monk give 3% damage.
And now, you dont need to balance warriors agains everyone else. Only against a mage. And a DH against monks. For example.
So in theory what this would create is more than 1 meta comp. And if you got 2 meta comps for example, you go from 5 meta classes to 10 meta classes. Which is already an improvement.
Not only do Evokers have two abilities that can dispel poison, they are the only healers who can dispel every debuf including Bleeding.
On top of that, Cauterizing Flame has a 1 min. CD while Mass Dispel and Poison Cleansing Totem have 2 min. CD.
Honestly, it is absolutely wild that a healer with the highest HPS, 5 CC abilites (according to Wowhead), all-dispel kit and Heroism isn’t the meta-god healer.
Very simple. You can use this technique for tanks, healers and dps. Let’s take dps as example.
Step 1: Put all dps classes against a single target dummy.
Step 2: Put all dps classes against a 5 target dummy group.
Step 3: Put all dps classes against an 8 target dummy group.
Step 4: Adjust numbers until they are nearly equal for all dps classes.
Done. Alle dps classes will deal nearly equal dps in most standard cases now. When Blizzard can be expected to at least do this minimum effort, we can start talking about utility, support and defensive toolkit next, but that will never happen when they obviously can’t even do basic math first. When Blizzard can’t even balance numbers, they will never be able to balance toolkit. They don’t even consider it and accept the resulting imbalances.
It’s the only logical conclusion to draw from this tbh.
We’ve had so many season already with either god comps or S+ tier classes. Instead of nerfing and buffing around like crazy and failing at it (like they’re doing right now), they could simply incentivize more players to stick to their classes because they can get title on those classes anyways.
It’s an issue when each season 95% of the titles go to the same 5 to 6 speccs.
In fact, all this YoYo in tuning we have now… I kinda agree with it. Because if you yoyo to this degree nobody can reroll FOTM. You choose your spec and stick with it.
Lmao actually true. Your specc can literally go from A tier, to S+++ tier, to D tier within the span of a single week.
It’s still interesting to see them balancing things right now because it seems that they have absolutely no idea what they’re doing right now and what they’re supposed to be doing.
Are you really saying that the utility of pres is better than shamans?
You have an amazing buff, ranged 12-second kick, and comparing MD with totem that can be recalled with an ability on a one-minute cooldown is just atrocious.
Interesting to see such strawmanning from you
Also, shamans have better CC than evokers, not that it matters though
About hps there are few questions too because it is somewhat same, or shaman is higher in hps in m+
You also have reincarnation
On top of that you can play dwarf
Oh they can, they just don’t. What’s their reason to have close to a perfect balance when people keep rerolling anyways? Rerolling costs quite some effort, time, and gold. Sounds like quite a good business case from a company’s perspective.
Yes. I AM really saying that. Our utility hasent changed in 2 expansions. Somethings even since Vanilla.
If our utility is better than everyone else’s we would have been meta since TBC. But we rent. As for HPS performance I am not wrong. Look at the data, its there !
Like tell me. If having a 12s kick and a cap totem is so OP now, why wasent it in DF ? I fail to understand that.
As for the dwarf racial, so can Priests. They are not meta. Oh wait ! I see a DPriest in the horizon climbing in popularity with out a kick, and with out a cap totem.
My guess about the popularity/power of Rshams comes from 3 things this season.
a) pretty much almost all dungeons having either poisons or curses to dispel
b) having +20% extra hp on top just stops 1 shot mechanics.
c) a VERY potent range kick
Yes, the kick was available before TWW too but the spell queue change made every kick, espescially short CD kicks WITH range even more valuable.
The 20% extra hp are new to TWW afaik and the dungeons, with their dispel mechanics, just align really well with the toolkit rshams have rn.
Disc on the other hand, which is on the rise, provides good dmg with his own dmg and PI and also really strong externals like Pain Sup and Barrier, also mitigating 1 shot mechanics. The stam buff comes on top of that too as well as the ability to pre-shield incoming damage. They literally can’t dispel anything in these dungeons though, other than boss mechanics and don’t get me started on the non-existent kick.
The healing output of Rsham really isn’t that great compared to other healers like Evoker or Disc.
