Well, we know it does not constitute that. Even Sylvanas and Saurfang don’t consider this the start of any war at all. They use it to justify starting one, but I think there is an important distinction.
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That being?..
Unwillingness to cave in and add faction hostilities amidst a demonic invasion doesn’t negate the fact that once the situation is calmer, and both sides have time to reconsider their stance, they can’t look back on said events and decide to act in accordance.
Let alone that even if there isn’t some precise list of conditions that back up any weird “legality” of the faction conflict, it remains a fact that Stormheim was indeed seen as a reason to explain why the Horde decided to attack back.
It is used to justify starting a war, yes. All I am saying is that both Saurfang and Sylvanas consider starting/start a war, and they recognize that. They do not lay the blame with Genn in particular, for example.
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The comparison wasn’t really serious. But calling the destruction of a whole fleet “a surgical strike” is just as stupid 
Thats what i ment.
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Sure, dealing with such things could be an interesting reason for interactions. If each side has just a part of the puzzle, maybe combining them would end up being a decent story.
“NO U” approach is not functional and you know it. It’s the horde that wants to reform and be different, so it’s easy to see why that side would be easier to imagine making steps in that direction. Later can be later: Genn, Jaina, whatever else.
I guess we would need to ask the devs to explain how they see it.
The way I see it, is that there are useful things that the horde could get, especially from the night elves. And I do not think we need to debate that the night elves would not do the 1st step, not to mention that every party involved should know that it is the case.
Which leaves just 1 option - start from another side. Just like Thrall did. Except that instead of a stupid question from Baine about burning Thunder Bluff, there could be a more productive direction. That about it.
I am rather sure they did it not for the love of the alliance.
Some - sure. But who knows how will it go.
When did it ever stop the devs from introducing silly reasons for another faction conflict?
Well, of course. That is also one of reasons why IMO they are on a track to do things. But I only noticed that suggesting to burn Orgrimmar or Thunder Bluff as Baine voiced in Shadows Rising, was rather stupid, and instead, it would be better to seek for cooperation. One that could be mutually benefitial, so there would be no reason to try to describe it as something insulting or degrading for the horde.
The horde just made first steps. Peace is far from being “cemented”.
If that would be possible, I would be all for having options to ask peace fans like Anduin about it. Or Jaina about her actions.
Well, that does not work like it. If one interact with a party during the war, that would be considered as siding with them. I do not think it’s even remotely possible to expect that not to happen, irl at least.
That is part of why the game can’t do “morally grey” IMO. Actions during attack on zandalari with all this “let them mourne” or whatever, was sacrificing their own people for… something, I don’t know.
But Jaina supporting Thrall did not require her to sacrifice anything. Anduin pushing for this all did not, say, starve his nation. Just like other time, Kirin Tor members who voted to allow back the horde did not face any consequences.
There is next to no price to pay, because the game “wants to tell” that there is one correct path. It’s IMO unrealistic and boring, and I can’t say why the devs chose to portray thing the way they did.
If you want to describe it with there words - sure, good luck.
IMO there was a war. Big enough to be called the 4th war. Initiated by one of sides, not the other. So, we’re working from that. Later can be later. Before looking for a way to mend broken arm in all the details, it might be useful to address internal bleeding 1st. In the process of doing so, it’s possible even for the horde to get something truly valuable.
So, if “NO U” approach is the one that in your opinion is more helpful for the horde than fixing Durotar / Barrens / blighted territories - sure, I wish you could have an option to go to the center of Orgrimmar and state to every NPC and leader something like
“It does not matter that we can get lumber, better habitable territories, and forge the future, because instead we must stand there and say “NO U!!1”, since that is what builds cities, and feed the people.”
Hey, I told you already, I am all for Anduin and Jaina, as the main peace promoters, to actually address the things you mentioned. But neither of us has the power to push the story in a sensible direction.
Given the pro-peace stance of Anduin and Jaina they should be all for it. If they are or not - I do not know. I’ve heard Jaina has a habit of hopping back and forth in her actions, to the point of some calling her bipolar.
I mean, the only way to measure is the level of tension with night elves. If keeping tension is desireable - you’re correct. If fixing relationships, territories, and improving quality of life for the horde is the goal - probably not. But hey, what do I know about the plans of the devs.
gl hf
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Thing is, that I don’t see why would they want to do it anymore than they already have.
And yes, if the Alliance wants further compromise beyond killing and putting in chains fellow faction members, then they probably should also start showing that same proactiveness to check on their own members.
Baine literally risked his life and killed Forsaken soldiers, just to return Jaina her dead brother.
See, this isn’t subject to interpretation.
By supporting this, you are already willing to brush under the rug the fact that the Alliance started a new pace for the factional relations by trying to assassinate the newly appointed Warchief.
And it’s quite a big piece in terms of how the factions are to be treated onward.
And regarding this:[quote=“Chronorabbit-outland, post:65, topic:207058”]
If keeping tension is desireable
[/quote]
Blaming tensions squarely at the Hordes feet when the Alliance not only felt like poking at random, but also expect the Horde military to cannibalise itself for the sake of their own well-being, is one of the weirdest stances to be had regarding this whole thing.
Night elves feel tense now? Ok.
Why should that concern the Horde? They are already hunting down Sylvanas and anyone that supports her.
If the expectations are levelled to that of a spoiled kid that needs to keep on asking, then by all means, I can assure that they’ll probably break their neck with all that tension.
Because they will be the only ones to blame for such expectations.
Just as the Alliance was ‘comfortable’ enough, and didn’t have any sort of ‘tension’ when they decided to support an attack against the Horde in Stormheim, or invade and kill Rastakhan, then maybe they should also learn to live with the fact that they aren’t entitled to whatever they want.
If tensions remain such, half the blame for it lays with the Alliance.
Just to answer this. It does not have to concern the Horde. But it clearly does, because the Horde leadership does not want to have these tensions stay around only to reach a boiling point some time in the future.
I think it’s fairly logical that the new Horde leadership, which have stated to want to represent a new path for the Horde, would seek to lower tensions with those that suffered the most because of a war the Horde started.
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Sure. But the same would be the case for the Alliance.
Hence why I think that all this talk about showing compromise and making amendments, would go for BOTH sides.
Because as far as the Horde goes, they already took the pertinent measures to compensate whatever extra burden they may have had in this whole thing.
And the “well you started it…”. No, the Horde didn’t start hostilities, they reacted because of an act of aggression that they had decided to formerly overlook.
“But you didn’t seem to mind me trying to kill your leader!!” isn’t an excuse the Alliance can hold on to in order to lay the blame for this whole escalation of hostilities entirely at the Hordes feet.
Both sides need to make compromises, yeah. But I think in terms of damage done, the Horde would naturally have to make a few more concessions to the Alliance than the other way around.
I don’t agree. I believe such steps can only be taken once Sylvanas is killed. With her looming shadow out of the way, other measures can be taken. First and foremost would be the return of whatever territory they invaded/conquered. We know this already happened on both Kul Tiras and Zandalar, but no word on the rest.
Yet they did start a war with a genocide. That is not something you can shrug off with “but it was the warchief”. Most of the Horde council seems to recognise this. Chief among them is Thrall, who wasn’t even part of the Horde at that point.
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I did not get to this part of the story, but I am sure, once I do, it will involve something like “honour”, right thing to do, etc. Things of personal value for Baine that he did because he thought it is correct. Instead of Jaina that could be another character should the devs use someone different as a “warbringer” who should be pushed towards forgiving everything and everyone.
No. By stating what I did, I say, that the recent events are recent, and the rest can be addressed over time. Besides, Anduin did little about it. And I said, that in my opinion, should I have a choice I would pursue Anduin and Jaina as an alliance (mostly) player to address those things so that they would be resolved.
I do not have such option. So, here you have it. Would it be logical to discuss the consequences of purge of Dalaran in all the details? Yes. Can I push the story there? No.
Some horde members dealed with those who wanted to push back to conflict. Anduin pushed the alliance in the same direction. That’s a start. But far from finish.
Once again, I have nothing other than an option to scratch my had in relation to why Anduin never adressed formally to the horde the question with Genn. He is pro-peace. Yet the devs somehow make 1 step, but not the next. Oh well, what can we do?
Legion was a period when after loss of Varian Anduin had to step in. And he was at the time one of few members wishing for peace. Provocations are unavoidable in such situation.
I am blaming the tension squarely at the ridiculousness of the lack of discussions about the tree™ in the horde story. And a bunch of leading characters defending Undercity after it. However you slice it, this thing was placed by the devs into the story.
Depends. I mean, if you think that to maintain goal [peace] it’s not necessary to support pro-peace “elements” of opposing faction, good luck. That is one of likely recipes for the next faction conflict once the devs run out of ideas for a new big bad characters.
Yeah, sure. Tell to someone who’s family burned alive irl that they are spoled kids. What could possibly go wrong?
I mean, I have only casual-irl “logic” in me, I don’t know the inner workings of WoW to build a consistent theory of how it would work in-universe.
Nah, even if in the story they would burn every horde member on Kalimdor, general perseption would be “well, they asked for it”. I am not the right person to ask about it - ask devs why they placed the tree™ event and canonically called it a genocide. Such things have lasting consequences.
There was no full assault. You have Genn there, and just do the worgen starting quests to see why he had his feelings toward the horde, and Catherine Rogers, just visit Southshore if it’s not clear how a person who’s life was turned into that could act.
Those things did not appear out of nowhere. All have to start somewhere. And so it happens, that night elves is the main pain point in the faction story at the moment. Rest would come eventually. If the devs would want it. But who knows what they want.
This story was a mess, although killing Rastakhan IMO is not the biggest problem, he was the leader and made his choice. Just like zandalari made their choice to side during the war with one of factions (initiative of Talanji).
My main problem is killing the last trolls of that one Hyjal dark troll tribe, and the last drakkari. Which is like… why?.. Oh well.
I completely disagree with you. Full blame lies on nonsense made by the dev team.
In story, we would need to go way further, starting with Thrall not willing to persue orcs who skinned some night elves alive, to attack on Ashenvale, to night elves after all donating Azshara zone to the horde, to which they got a great repay from goblins and other horde forces.
And then say what in recent (Cata+, because earlier is not available in the game) times night elves did to push to war, and what they got out of it as a reward at the beginning of BfA.
gl hf
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Was she killed in the raid? I did not know this.
No, just a quest.
Includes
and
gl hf
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You mention Stormheim but you seem to forget that it was am expedition of exclusively Forsaken soldiers with the sole purpose of helping Sylvanas capture Eyir so that she could get an unlimited supply of Val’kyries. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with the Legion invasion. In fact, it used the ensuing chaos to capture Eyir. Good thing Genn wasn’t fooled by that traitorous wench and managed to ruin the devious plot.
You Horde posters are really selective when it comes to justifying your faction’s atrocities.
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Nothing of that was known to Genn, or anyone else except Sylvanas at that point.
His reasoning was Sylvanas > EVIL! > ATTACK!!! even with explicit Orders not to Attack Sylvanas, and only watch her.
From a personal point of view, this is perfectly reasonable. What is not reasonable is that Anduin doesn’t punish this insubordination, and attack on an at that point ally in a war against WoW-Satan.
PS. In a way it was Anduins fault. He sent 2 people who lost everything they loved to Sylvanas on a recon mission against her. Every halfway decent commander would know that this is not a good idea.
Something that the Horde is already trying to do.
They are also hunting down any lingering supporters she may have.
And those are only the measures taken after the war. To which we would add the ones taken DURING it: actively sabotaging the war effort, crippling and countering certain measures taken against the Alliance, or completely halting hostilities to face together common enemies.
Why? And why won’t this be a point the Alliance is to be held by too?
Should the Horde expect their settlements in Zoramgar and Splintertree? Have their outpost in Arathi?
The Alliance retreating completely out of Silverpine, Tirisfal, the Barrens,…
And the culprit behind such is being hunted down to kill her. As well as anyone that remains supportive about her.
Because the war didn’t start with a genocide as far as the majority of the Horde knew. That was a last minute order not even Nathanos knew about until it was issued.
Also, if the line is drawn at Teldrassil, should we assume that War of Thorns was fair game and outside any peace deal to be made regarding the war?
After a briefing from Nathanos, Bane stated the obvious “Its time for negotiations”. By releasing Derek he started the negotiations. That was one of the reason i liked BfA, they unfold the story with characters remaining true to who they are.
You made up like 99,9% of this post.
The Forsaken didn’t know about Eyir. They didn’t set sail because of her. And not once is she mentioned in the entire questline (until the very end).
The distancing was such, that we literally had Sylvanas going off on her own after ordering the rest of the army to carry out the goal of their mission: get the aegis.
I’m afraid it isn’t a matter of “Horde players being selective”, it’s more about you not knowing the lore.
This is a great first step.
Do not thought that only Saurfang resisted from the get go. The rest nicely fell in line, with the occasional rumbling. It was not until 8.2 that some elements of the Horde started to resist (Baine). Even then, a majority of the Horde was ready to defend Orgrimmar and Sylvanas until she hurt their feelings by saying they’re worthless.
I see few actual, substantial steps taken during the war by the majority of the Horde. That majority did not leave the Horde, you know. They are still part of the Horde. And though they no longer support Sylvanas, they did in fact not shy away from genocide and other atrocities.
The Alliance should be held to this, too. Only Arathi was never full on Alliance or Horde territory (in WoW), so you can’t give those territories back. I do believe the smaller Horde outpost is still of the Horde, though.
If there is anything left of the Splintertree clan at all, maybe. But even then they should stay far away from the Night elves.
What I am saying here is that things regarding teritory should return to the staus after MoP. This only relevant to actual, historical faction territories.
Sylvanas was responsible, but the Horde was very eager. Never was the order given, but the Horde shamans fanned the flames of Teldrassil regardless. This indicates that the Horde at its core did not mind doing this. Just as my first point indicates that.
Why would it be fair game? The War of Thorns was part of the Fourth War, and thus everything that happened there should be on the scoreboard when making a peace deal (which still isn’t anywhere near close to being brokered).
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Asking it like this is just another slap in the face of the Night Elf fanbase…
I mean seriously? Everyone should pay for the crimes against the Kaldorei. Even Alliance races. It is time Blizzard focuses on justice or we will collectively unsubscribe for the 19th time this month…
Justice for Teldrassil! 
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You just dumped your dwarf avatar to embrace the chaos of the NEFPA?
You truly are a servant of chaos, fellow forum dweller.