https://imgur.com/WjCik4D
There was a duscussion with Genn, but nothing serious.
And no, I do not think that him having troubles (18 year old after all) is a reason for the horde parties interested in peace not to support him. Or to expect no provocations, accidents.
Yet, there is a peace treaty currently. So, who was shown in the game to have an upper hand in the end? You gessed right, it’s Anduin. And Genn was not able to push it in another direction.
Yeah. That’s the point. Anduin is a pro-peace character surrounded by those who wished to push to war. What do you do to avoid the war in such case? Undermine peace of course!
Wasn’t Saurfang the one who stated that he would kill Garrosh should he take the orcs down another dark road? Oh snap. He ended up taking the horde in that direction himself.
There could never be any effect of it other than to undermine peace and justify those who wanted a war to continue. Anduin is well known for pro-peace approach. And given that currently he pushed the whole faction into it, it just highlights how ridiculous was everything that could undermine him. In actions, he proved his intentions - the alliance supported peace. For now.
Now, how could Anduin change after this expansion - that is a different question.
Officially ask Anduin? Promote / seek for cooperation?
In retrospective it would be better to gamble that the next attack would be successful
Those are not even real questions in a sense, because who knows what the devs want. If they want to reduce tension - that would be one thing. If to raise it - something else.
Ideally it would be good to negotiate all of contested territories, and not just on Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. But it’s not hard to expect this not to happen. Like, there is a treaty at the moment. Did anybody see the details of it? That is the sad reality of trying to discuss those things.
gl hf
The Thing is: We know that, from a Horde Point of View Anduin sent Genn to Stormheim and Genn attacked the Warchief.
Do you think that anyone would call it “sabotage of peace” if the United States attacked Russia after a Russian General sunk a Fleet with the PotUS on board, and Putin didn’t punish him?
It wasn’t the Horde who sabotaged peace, it was Genn and the Attack in Stormheim, even if it was, from a personal point, justified.
Attacked her because likely or not she they had info about her plans in Stormheim. But thats disputable
Also the nature to how he got to her was her enslaving Eir the prime Valkyr, undermining whole campaign against Legion for her personal agenda. So tell me how many would stand behind that cause knowing the both sides of story. Especially Saurfang, man of Honor dur dur.
It was a whisper not a fact, he says it himself. Whisper that could be true or not. For all he knew.
Hypocrisy much.
For a reason, also there was many more occasions Alliance has jumped to help the Horde. Or fight for same cause. That battle of overweighting that goes in his head also notes that.
It wasnt a fact either. Me and you we know it because we played it, Saurfang on the other hand had no evidence of such things, it was rumors he overheard. Plus he lacked the knowledge to what Sylvanas was up to in Stormheim doing no less damage to overall progress of both factions.
So to be convinced to wage open faction war on that… Idk, seems shaky.
Don’t get me wrong Genn did overstep his boundaries, but luckily he caught her with her pants down.
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He didn’t know her plans. As far as i remember most of the Alliance Quest in Stormheim is finding out about her plans. He attacked because he had a personal grudge with Sylvanas, and his second in command did as well.
I think that it all would start with diplomatic effort first. Because starting a conflict is easy, but fixing things is a long and painful process.
Genn comitted a questionable act in early Legion time frame. That did not stop the anti-legion efforts. This part was handled. Class orders across the board were a bridge. Yet instead of taking all of it into account and adressing things diplomatically another path was taken.
There were options. There were tools. There was time. There was cooperation. And mentioning all of it IMO is relevant before talking about Genn at the beginning of the Legion. All the work after needed to be undermined, I suppose, by that logic.
gl hf
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That quest start in Aszuna claim that forsaken is carrying a journal with Sylvanas’ plans for Stormheim, but later Horde dispatches Alliance soldier carrying same journal. And we never got the explanation of which happened in what order.
Also this couldn’t be further then truth. If they had feared for their safety, which was not imminent, their could have been negotiations and diplomatic approach to it. As testing grounds.
But there was also Azerite resource resurfacing and both factions straight up wanted to bar each other off from it.
The efford to mend things after Stormheim should come from Anduin and the Alliance, that he doesn’t try sais everything the Horde needs to know.
He talks about peace, but the moment he has to do something for it he doesn’t.
No Apologies, no Punishment for Genn, nothing.
The wronged party has no duty to mend things.
Not comepletely nothing, but nothing significant, yes.
“NO U” approach won’t work. Young leader. With a lot of problems. And in the end, he was successful in achieving at least temporary peace, and showcasing how pointless the suggestions that the alliance would attack first were.
Just sitting in the corner and waiting for Anduin to make the 1st step when he had a burden that vast while being so young is kind of… counter productive IMO. Should they pursue peace, they should really pursue it. Like, test the reactions for different topics.
The wronged party shed a lot of blood while fighting together against a common enemy. There was plenty of time to seek for avenues to interact. Be it directly or through Kirin Tor. Nothing was done.
gl hf
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Technically, it was the Alliance who were wronged first, when the Horde withdrew without warning, leaving the Alliance forces high and dry to the Legion’s army.
Of course, the Horde had good reasons to retreat, but the Alliance didn’t know that. And even with that, their retreat was so sudden, it gave the Alliance zero time to prepare their own withdrawal. Given that they had a military alliance to defeat the Legion, such utter self interest could quite reasonably be seen as a betrayal of trust in battle.
Stormheim was an incredibly stupid move given the global circumstances, but turned out to be the correct move to make.
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Pretty sure there was that horn call signalling retreat. What more could the horde have done in that situation?
Except of course, getting slaughtered down to the last man to allow the alliance safe retreat.
Realise they were being overrun sooner, send a messenger and then bail?
I’m not expecting them to die to the last man to defend the Alliance’s position, but simply retreating without so much as a message as to why is pretty bad. Did they ever even explain how bad their situation was to the Alliance afterwards, or apologise for what was, frankly, their failure to hold the cliffs?
Horde were butchered and wasted, they lost their Warchief there, I doubt they would waste more men for a losing cause - even Alliance faced waves and waves on oncoming demons. But yeah maybe that was also a factor for Genn, still processing Varians death, blaming Sylvanas or what not.
In fact, yes they did. Anduin mentions it in BtS, Baine explained it to him. And he believed him. He also asks Sylvanas about it before the Gathering and she tells him the same. There was no other way the horde could have acted that wouldn’t have ended in the destruction of both the horde’s and the alliance’s troops.
The only talk of betrayal comes from Genn ( which is odd, since he immediately blames Sylvanas and not Vol’jin who actually gave the order ) and then from Blizzard themselves at the bfa announcement, presumably to stoke up tension between the factions.
Before the Storm occurs post-Legion, correct? That means that until Stormheim, the Alliance was operating under the impression that the Horde just left them to die, which is a more than valid reason for a counter-strike, if at a VERY stupid time to do so.
Post-Stormheim kind of justifies itself. If Anduin had known what Sylvanas was going to do there, he’d likely have given Genn his blessing to stop her.
So we’re in a somewhat murky quagmire of nobody really having all the information until way after the events, where it all balances out to more or less neutral overall.
Well, one would think they would talk about the event asap, but communication between the factions seems to be in need of improvement, to say the least, even in peacetime.
However it cannot have escaped the alliance that the horde’s warchief was mortally wounded at the Broken Shore and that their situation there must have been a dire one.
True enough.
I suppose Sylvanas being elected to Warchief, after she’d been the one to give the order to retreat was just too much for Genn. With no official apology or statement coming from them, the best interpretation that the Alliance could see was that the Horde was entirely self-interested and didn’t give a hoot about the Alliance’s losses after their retreat, and the worst (with limited info) would be that Sylvanas had performed a subtle coup.
It wasn’t a pleasant time for anyone on Azeroth. Unless you were a Legion cultists. Then you were having a blast.
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Sylvanas didn’t give the order to retreat, though. That was Vol’jin. Genn just assumes it was betrayal on her part because he expects only the worst from her. With good reason, sure, but in this case, wrongly. All Sylvanas does at the Broken Shore is following the orders of her warchief.
As far as the Alliance knew, she was the one. It’s her rangers on the cliff and once the horn is blown, they bail. Notice how their immediate assumption has nothing to do with Vol’Jin and is all focused on Sylvanas.
Again, the Horde’s only failings on the Broken Shore was overestimating their own ability to hold the cliffs, and not bothering to spare even a single soldier to inform the Alliance of what was going on. But to the Alliance, it was a betrayal that had Sylvanas’s ranged units abandon them, and ended with Vol’Jin dead and Sylvanas Warchief. It was a horrible lack of information and any kind of apology from the Horde that had them assuming the worst.
Stormheim was still a stupid move, if justifiable in retrospect.
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It was nice to see some others’ points of view and get a better view of the Alliance’ perspective.
Then the thread derailed to random thoughts and obvious Horde trolls baiting people.
Judgement: this forum isn’t fit for on-topic, non-troll lore discussion. Adios!