https://warcraft.wiki.gg/images/thumb/8/8c/Chronicle2_Eastern_Kingdoms_Before_the_First_War.jpg/800px-Chronicle2_Eastern_Kingdoms_Before_the_First_War.jpg
Alterac does border both Darrowmere and Lordamere, both of which are lakes connected to the sea through rivers wide enough to sail ships through. Arthas sailed to Northrend directly from Capital City and there were naval battles on Darrowmere during the Second War.
But more importantly in the context of this book. https://warcraft.wiki.gg/images/5/58/Warcraft2Console_PlayStation_Azeroth_map.jpg
At the time of Day of the Dragonâs release this is what the Eastern Kingdoms looked like in the lore.
Turns out I actually have Thaeârasan on my RealID still after all this time. At first Iâd forgotten who the name belonged to but then when I saw a character login, it instantly clicked.
Iâm about to vanish for a few weeks starting tomorrow, but I do have some small personal things here and there going on. Actually getting time to sit down and properly RP is another thing in itself, but I think thereâs room for a catch up at some point down the line!
i reiterate. while ji got an actually good part in the shadowlands prequel novel, deserved af, aysa has been absolutelyâŠunheard of in all these years. frankly its a blessing and a curse with modern blizzard for your race to be overlooked on lore but its a tad ridiculous. pandaren are members of both factions, same as orcs and humans.
To be honest; One could ask the same question about why any race would even still want to work with, or be part of, the Horde.
Orcs and Forsaken must be, by now, full on unreliable partners in times of peace and it will only be a matter of when, not if, if theyâll pull you into another war with whoever moved the wrong stone that other day or whatever.
By all logical, the Horde as an entity shouldâve stopped existing decades ago again.
Personally, Iâd argue she absolutely did. We already know thanks to Shadowlands that her goal was to cause as much death as possible to feed the Maw. She was working for the Jailer since atleast the end of Icecrown Citadel to some extent.
Shaw and the Alliance did attack the goblins mining azerite, which is bad, Iâm not saying it isnât, but it is not unlike any skirmishes weâve already seen.
Sylvanas responding by going straight for an Alliance Capitol, while also making sure only civilians were present and then attempted to wipe out the entire population with full force? Yeah Iâd say that would be the direct start of the war.
Genn started the war, when he attempted to assassinate the Warchief in Stormheim.
Anduin confirms that they are at war in Before the Storm, when he confirms the Gathering is not a ceasefire in a letter to Sylvanas. You canât have a not-ceasefire if youâre at peace. Therefore, canonically, they were at war.
And Genn started it. And then he didnât get punished. And then Anduin undermined his stupid Gathering by bringing Calia, in direct contravention of his own stupid plan. Whoops! She tried to get the Forsaken Leadership to defect. Sure hope that doesnât incite any ill-will.
You absolutely know that if the script was flipped and Nathanos had attempted to assassinate Anduin during the Stormheim campaign that people would be screaming to the highest heavens about how the Forsaken started the war right then and there, and that the Alliance isnât to blame for marching on Silvermoon.
But because itâs a Horde leader that got targeted? Nah, not important I guess Forget about it.
âSylvanas escalated it by targeting an Alliance capitalâ Genn tried to assassinate her.
I am willing to admit it was the Alliance that struck the first blow in regards to the Fourth War, even then, I still do not think they were in the wrong.
By that logic you can say Sylvanas started the War by attacking Gilneas all the way back in Cataclysm.
Itâs not because sheâs a Horde Leader. Did you miss that she was a straight up villain that tried to kill the entire cosmos?
Even in Legion, it was blatantly obvious she wasnât just there and Genn said âLets go kill her!â. They suspected she was doing something really sketchy, and surprise, she tried to bargain with one of the villains of the expansion in exchange for something evil and then tried to enslave a titan watcher with it.(Something everyone regardless of faction would say is evil).
The difference if Nathanos did it as well is that he is both A) an awfully written character. B) Just as comically evil as Sylvanas was.
Itâs not about them being Horde or Alliance. One character is a straight up evil villain by every sense of the word.
Not gonna defend what he did, just sucks he failed at his heroic attempt.
but if your first reaction to almost being assassinated is deciding to pull a literal genocide on a race that had nothing to do with it and is probably the loosest member of the AllianceâŠ
Then you do not get to pull the victim card and you are probably not a really good person, in general!
Anyways Shadowlands did such a number on Sylvanas aa a character. Sure she wasnât a perfectly written character before that, but she atleast made some sense! And was fun to get quests from! (Like Garrosh!)
Again, it also came after her personally overseeing the downfall of an entire Kingdom, personally murdering his son and while she also simultaneously as the assassination attempt tried to enslave a titanic watcher using evil evil villain magic.
Which we also know now, she was doing on direct orders from someone who wanted to destroy the cosmos.
And, no, they appeared to have a ceasefire going for the Legion campaign, what with the whole fighting together stuff. Either that, or perhaps they were at war beforehand? But then, Sylvanas wasnât Warchief then - Volâjin was, post-MoP. So is he to blame? Maybe. Still not Sylvanas though.
What does it matter how evil they are? The contention is âwho started the Fourth Warâ. Thatâs what you brought up, and thatâs what I challenged.
It wasnât Sylvanas. The canon says youâre wrong about it.
It entirely was though. Your discussion started with âwhy are they in the Horde?â and you pointed to Sylvanas starting the war. What youâve done is shifted the goalposts from âShe started the warâ (she didnât) to âsheâs just a bad personâ.
It doesnât matter if Genn felt he was personally justified in his actions or not. Thatâs, again, not the discussion. Itâs an excuse. He still acted, he still went unpunished. How justified he is/isnât doesnât change the fact that he started the war.
If Sylvanas is as bad and evil and wrong as you say then you should simply point to the things she actually did wrong as Warchief, instead of making up things that she didnât do. If your position is correct, there should be no need for falsehoods.
That wasnât the first reaction. The first reaction was GREYMANEâS FORCES HOLD THIS WARDEN TOWER. BREAK THEIR RANKS. SHOW NO MERCY.
Did that ceasefire have a clausule about abandoning your âalliesâ without warning leading directly to the death of the High King of the Alliance?
You always gloss over the fact that Genn saw Varian die infront of his eyes because of Sylvanas actions, kinda like how he saw Liam Greymane die infront of his eyes because of Sylvanasâ actions.
If there was a ceasefire, or truce, or whatever, before the Broken Shore, Sylvanasâ actions there have (rightly) ensured a aggresive response from the Alliance.
There was a ceasefire during the launch of Legion, but itâs left uncertain(Though most likely it broke apart) when Sylvanas had the Horde retreat in full(rather than just securing Volâjin and continuing), leading to them abandoning the Alliance mid-fight and the battle being lost with Varian and Tirion both dying(Tirion captured first).
The aftermath of it even before Stormheim shows that both sides considered the truce lost at that point.
(And again, in hindsight we know Sylvanas and her allies also did all of this to get her the role of Warchief). (Wow they really did assassinate alot of her character).
It definitely was in my opinion. Genn stopping her from enslaving Eyir is not something I consider worth putting the blame on him for a war.
Yeah but specifically about the Pandaren. Even with the Huojin, their ideals are very far detached from the Horde, who has as a faction(or rather specifically two of their Warchiefs) done horrible atrocities towards the Pandaren people as a whole, their homeland and generally alot of stuff that 99% of Pandaren would be absolutely abhorred by. That was the point.
I would ask the same question about the Alliance if both Wrynns on the throne had done identical issues specifically related to the Pandaren and their believes.
Also despite how it seems here in this thread, I actually donât like the Horde being the villain faction. Itâs annoying to see them clearly have some interesting ideas and views(especially one about redemption), only for them to simultaneously be evil when Blizzard needs easy conflict.
Alright, If I say this then:
Struck a deal with Helya to enslave Eyir.
Actively committed Genocide towards a species, specifically targeting civilians only & knowingly sending their souls to super hell to be obliterated from existence(so not even an afterlife).
Aided in releasing Nâzoth by working with Azshara, all to cause as much chaos and death as possible on Azeroth.
Working for the Jailer to destroy the cosmos and reality itself.
Forget about it.