The actions here again also worth noting being: She literally killed him herself infront of Genn while laying waste to the entire Kingdom.
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Sylvanas obeyed an order to retreat from her Warchief. So Iâm afraid if you do blame the Horde for that and somehow twist yourself into knots to call that a declaration of war (lmao, for real??) then Iâm afraid the blame falls on Volâjin once more, not Sylvanas.
But go ahead man, say âVolâjin started the Fourth War when he called for a retreat at the Broken Shoreâ. That makes you sound totally rational+normal lmao.
Of course, had the Alliance provided proper intelligence, it wouldnât have happened at all. Unfortunately SI:7 is grossly incompetent.
If âthey called for a retreat, which killed Varianâ counts then I guess âthey provided bad intel, which killed Volâjinâ should also count. So I guess, whoops, we went back another step and the Alliance are to blame again.
Iâm pretty sure the Legion killed him actually?
Why arenât you blaming Jaina for noping out of the fight? Sounds like she let Varian die more than Sylvanas did.
Okay but he still did start it. He broke whatever truce they had. That he got retroactively partially justified by the narrative wasting Sylvanas doesnât change that, since he had no idea about any of it. He didnât know anything of Sylvanasâ plans in Stormheim right up until basically the last moment, long after he tried to kill her.
Sure.
At least itâs true.
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I mean this honestly, but their writing of Sylvanas in Shadowlands really did screw with this moment. Because before that, I do agree with you here. Alliance gets only half of the view of what happens there, and initially in Legion it was fairly obvious it was not as planned as Genn and company thinks.
But with Shadowlands lore, it was all plan to get Mueâzala to whisper to Volâjin and make Sylvanas leader.
We know from the canonical timeline of Legionâs events that the Alliance finds the Dread-Captainâs log in Azsuna detailing Sylvanasâ plans in Stormheim and for the Horde (why nobody else but this dread-captain knew any of this info is a mystery for the ages). You hand the log to Genn, Genn does the eyes-bulging emoji and decides cowabunga it is if Sylvanas intends on letting loose literal-hell upon Azeroth itself.
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Well yeah, thatâs because they rewrote her after Legion took place. Which is why in her personal monologue in Before the Storm (post-Legion) sheâs like âman I didnât wanna be Warchief, this sucks, but I am proud of itâ.
Only you donât know that, because the zones take place at the same time and the Horde gets an identical quest? Why do you think the Alliance one is canon and not the Horde? Thereâs nothing in the quest text on the Alliance Stormheim intro to indicate they have any information from the Aszuna quests.
Also you donât hand the log to Genn at all? You hand it to a dude in Dalaran who says âIâll send it to Lord Greymaneâ (or âFile it awayâ if youâre Horde).
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Sure but we know Azsuna is canonically the first zone youâre meant to go too, and it also completes the puzzle of how on earth Genn:
-
Knew exactly where Sylvanas was
-
Knew what she was targetting in Stormheim
The only other way you can justify him knowing both those things without the Log (which explicitly tells you both things) is by waving your hands and going âerhâŚplot happenedâŚsomewhereâŚsomehowâ and I think its a lot less of a stretch to say he got it from the Logbook.
Provide a source for that, thanks.
?
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Thatâs more information than the logbook had, and the idea that the Alliance wasnât monitoring/aware of Horde fleet movement seems kinda unlikely?
He didnât know. The quests confirms that. This is right before their confrontation at the end of the zone:-
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shielded_Secrets_(Alliance)
Itâs obvious at this point that the Horde wants something in Skold-Ashil. Unfortunately we still donât know what theyâre after.
We think the secret lies with the shieldmaidens here, so we need to find out more about them. Some early scouting revealed that they have a method of carving their shields to tell their stories.Go into the city and find as many of these shields as you can. With luck, we will find what Sylvanas seeks.
The fact that they had no idea why Sylvanas was in Stormheim strongly indicates the opposite of what youâre claiming: That the Horde version is âcanonâ, if it even matters at all.
Oh, and the quest right before that one I just linked:-
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/To_Skold-Ashil_(Alliance)
We have her now! According to these reports, Sylvanasâ forces are after something in Skold-Ashil - a vrykul town not far from here. We must make our way there and track her down.
I had previously dispatched Commander Lorna Crowley and a detachment of Gilneas Brigade to scout the position. Meet up with her there and find out what Sylvanas is after.
Meanwhile, I will muster the fleet to assault their outpost. We will have justice if I have to reduce their camp to rubble!
Doesnât sound like he knew what Sylvanas was after to me.
Oh, and a few steps before:-
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Whispers_from_the_Dark
Excellent. The puzzle is finally coming together.
We may not know why Sylvanasâ forces are here, but I think we know where they are.
the amount of times Genn/Lorna say âman we got no clue what theyâre up toâ here really drills it home huh. Literally every other quest.
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Seems like its Stormheim actually according to Blizzcon initial panels which just begs more questions really for Legion as a whole. Specifically because you. . .donât actually go from Dalaran to Stormheim.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fallen_Lion has Genn saying he must prepare the fleet for the war which uhâŚI guess someone declared war off-screen? Since his fleet is very specifically not targetting the Legion or going to war with them, its directed at Sylvanas explicitly with the text even having Anduin mention Genn is fixated on getting vengeance for Sylvanasâ betrayal at the Broken Shore. Dios mio. Who fired the first shot. That or heâs being loosey-goosey in his wording.
Anyways as we know from Shadowlands Genn was objectively correct in his choices and can be forgiven entirely for trying to stop Multiuniversal-Hitler from sending trillions of souls willingly to Super-Hell 
His fleet was directed to assist in the Champion going to Stormheim to get the Aegis, which was a part of the efforts against the Legion.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Our official orders are to escort you to Stormheim and ensure your success on this trial.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Unofficially, however, we have another missionâŚ
Sky Admiral Rogers says: The 7th Legion. The toughest men and women the Alliance has to offer. They, too, have come on direct orders from the king.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: We are to track them from a safe distance. We may engage, but only if the situation demands.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect the situation will demand it. Genn Greymane says: It had better.
Genn Greymane says: I am not in the habit of tracking prey unless I intend on killing it.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Preparations are nearly complete. Please make yourselves comfortable.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Making_the_Rounds_(Alliance)
Who fired the first shot? Genn did. Weâve got no evidence that any shot was fired by the Horde, and if the Alliance declared war over a misunderstanding of the Broken Shore (which they in turn caused with SI:7âs failing) then that hardly absolves them. If anything, it makes it worse - because then itâs not just Gennâs singular revenge plan, but a more widely supported action even knowing that Volâjin also died at the Broken Shore.
While the concept of âchoose your own zoneâ is kinda neat (and was almost certainly done for mechanical reasons to reduce player count like they had in Jade Forest) it also absolutely sucks for narrative cohesion and flow.
Shadowlands, much as I hate it, was unironically better for this. It just kneecapped its story in a totally different way (locking it behind covenant stuff (and also sucking)).
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Even in a setting like Warcraft, despite the wishes of some fans, races are not one-dimensional monoliths incapable of nuance or deviation from the norm.
The current Desolate Council should demonstrate that the Forsaken are more complicated than just single-minded monsters obsessed with the death of the living.
As for the orcs, Varok Saurfang, Thrall and various other orcs of moral integrity should demonstrate that theyâre not just dumb warmongers who will do anything to commit a war crime.
And when it comes to how the Fourth War started, I think it boils down to this:
- Varian Wrynn, one of the few people of keeping Genn Greymane under control, was killed in circumstances that led him to believe that the Horde was indirectly responsible for his death. This led to him being even more hostile towards the Horde (and Sylvanas) than before.
- Though he was retroactively justified for breaking the truce, Genn Greymane did ultimately break the truce to assault the Hordeâs Forsaken forces while they were on their way to the Broken Isles, presumably to participate in the war against the Burning Legion, as far as the rest of the Horde knows. Weâve got no reason to believe that Sylvanasâs plan to enslave Eyir was public knowledge.
- On top of this seemingly random attack against the Hordeâs warchief and her forces during a war against an apocalyptic threat, the Alliance proceeds to sabotage and hinder the Hordeâs efforts to gather resources in an attempt to defend itself from the rising aggression of the Alliance.
- As a result of this, several key figures of the Horde are convinced by Sylvanas that peaceful co-existence with the Alliance is impossible and that they need to make a decisive first strike intended to cripple the Alliance, before the Alliance escalates the conflict on its own terms.
- The Horde marches off to the War of Thorns, with the intention of capturing Darnassus and holding it hostage as a way of convincing the Alliance to back off and stand down, only for Sylvanas to intentionally or unintentionally screw it up by burning down all of Teldrassil, turning their valuable hostage into a martyr in the eyes of the Alliance.
- And the Fourth War follows.
With Greymane and SI:7 escalating the conflict between the Alliance and the Horde at every opportunity (mostly due to the actions of Sylvanas) I can kind of understand why several key figures in the Horde would end up worried about Alliance aggression and end up being manipulated by Sylvanas into being useful idiots in her campaign to cause as much death as possible.
If you put the effort in, itâs easy to see how the Fourth War was started by Sylvanas manipulating every side into escalating until she finally got the big world war that her master wanted.
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I need to know what drugs they took when linking this story together because honestly I donât think Iâve seen anything so blatantly âOh **** weâre out of plans for where this is meant to goâ in my life to the degree that BfA-Slands was. We went from affably evil Sylvanas doing Saturday Morning things to her becoming the equivalent of Multiuniversal [Insert Evilest People in History] damning trillions to oblivion and servitude in the Maw.
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I mean, it does take a lot of retroactive mangling and justification but by the end of Shadowlands, Sylvanas does sort of look like a master manipulator, if you assume that she staged the Battle of the Broken Shore to go as poorly as it did, if you assume that she planned for Genn to see her leave and to be driven to go after her, if you assume that she planned for him to attack her on her way to Stormheim in order to make it seem like the Alliance was escalating things, if you assume that she arranged the Azerite mining known how the Alliance would respond to it, if you assume that she planned the War of Thorns with the intention of burning Teldrassil from the very start despite that lovely cinematic that makes it seem like a decision she made in the heat of the momentâŚ
If you assume that she planned almost every single plot development concerning Alliance and Horde interaction from 7.0 to 8.0, even the ones which were detrimental to her and her immediate goals at the time, then sheâs a real mastermind manipulator.
The powers of Domination are nothing next to the power of Script Reading.
-looks at the 30-something new posts-
So, what Iâm taking from this is that BFA and SL are the root of all (current) evil. Glad we can agree on that, and that whatever writers created that/whatever studio leads OKâd it through QA should hang their heads in shame.
They wonât. But we (I) can dream.
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If Sylvanas was played by someone on Argent Dawn sheâd be a metagaming, must-always-win, zero consequence loser who leaves every guild sheâs in because she didnât get her way.
Donât be a Sylvanas.
Tyrande Whisperwind readies her blade, attempting to fell the Banshee Queen.
[Sylvanas Windrunner] says: (uhm okay i dont accept character death???)
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reminder at this point in time shaw was chilling in a legion cell and had been since before the broken shore and that was a dreadlord (god i hate how that meme ruined actual statements) wearing a fake moustache purposefully directing alliance movements in ways that would ultimately damn them. something something amber keenan something something unnessecary death to keep the plot going.
god only knows how many screwups on the alliances part, such as stormheim, were a direct result of that.
edit: yes i know bfa proved shaw was an idiot anyway. thats another matter entirely
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Thatâs literally just Thammaron Leystrider in their prime.
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seeing that name again sent a surge of dread through me
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Okay but we should NOT pretend Tyrande wouldnât do the same.
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She and Malfurion leave Eluneâs guild because Elune refused to resolve the issue.
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