The fact the Horde have entirely thrown out their Thrall-era redemption arc not once but twice and are still functioning as a factional entity make this entire argument kind of laughable, tbqh.
Edit: The attempt by Blizzard to show “Oh, both sides did bad in the past” not marrying up with their own writing standards is kind of a key point here.
But it seems people are really REALLY keen on arguing “No, only x is Bad” here, so… I dunno. See you in however many hundred posts of circular arguing, I guess?
Especially when, going by the “Who shot first?” line of logic in terms of who started Fourth War, Horde is still the faction that did it. They broke the armistice in Ashran, which is a whole expansion before Genn and Rogers attacked the Forsaken in Stormheim.
The narrative also forgave the Horde for all of its crimes, as 8.2.5 and Shadowlands made it clear that Sylvanas was just playing four-dimensional chess all along and manipulating everyone, Horde and Alliance alike.
It’s mostly just some fans in the Warcraft Community who haven’t forgiven the Horde and continue to judge them and condemn them for various acts throughout the Fourth War, and before it too.
… But before and during the Battle for Azeroth, before Bliizard pulled the “war’s over, everyone move on now” card, yes, the Alliance often got away with anything aggressive or morally dubious that it did because Blizzard wasn’t interested in exploring Alliance introspection, only Horde introspection. Also because of some Alliance fans dismissing any mention of Alliance crimes as “whataboutism.”
I mean, how can you forgive a faction that to this day occupy lands that do not belong to them? (Looking at; Eastern Ashenvale, or the Humans in Durotar, etc)
Both are always never brought up when talking about the current peace, but both are basicly still occupations of lands that do not rightfully belong to them.
At either case; Blizzard done frecked up storywise and they have no idea how to write themselves out of it any other way but ignoring the elephants in the room…
In Before the Storm, the same book you point towards in an attempt to prove the factions were at war, Genn literally urges Anduin to use the time of peace between Legion and BfA to find a wife and make an heir. The book repeatedly goes on to show and tell us there is peace between the factions.
The only parts of Kalimdor unclaimed by a major power were the plains of Mulgore (which remain unexploited due to the harmonious and eco-friendly lifestyle of the tauren) and a whole lot of barren savannah and desert, all of which is devoid of a significant amount of trees.
And though intercontinental trade is possible, the Horde doesn’t really have modern infrastructure to enable the rapid movement of vital goods across the globe, so it makes sense that they need a more local source of building materials if they hope to survive in such a harsh environment.
So until an alternative solution is found, they are going to have to keep on gathering lumber from the nearby forested region of Ashenvale, even though some night elves consider it sacred and will defend it with their lives for that reason.
A little different, as it’s a forward stronghold established during an effort to try and wipe out the orcs once and for all, and has been maintained ever since as an Alliance outpost dedicated to keeping a watchful eye on the orcs and a potential landing ground for Alliance forces in the case of another war.
So, one is a resource-gathering operation that is opposed by the night elves for religious reasons and the other is a forward military base established in Horde territory for the purpose of surveillance and retaliatory action in the case of conflict. I hope you can see the difference there.
There was an alternative, though… Namely trade with the Night Elves, which wasn’t getting them lumber fast enough so they decided on bringing in back lumber operations and thus the trade between Night Elves and Orcs stopped, which in turn forced them to increase their lumber operations again.
As for the difference between Horde in Ashenvale and Alliance in Durotar, yea I can see the difference. Both are occupations of area’s they have no business in, though. Especially since the peace between both factions.
A Horde version of Northwatch would be an Horde outpost on the lighthouse Island near Stormwind, the Alliance wouldn’t like it, just as I assume the Horde does not like Northwatch Hold being a thing in Durotar.
I’m afraid that’s not the case, at least not in Cata. NElves shut off trade entirely.
Shattering novel (Thrall dialogue)
"And thus it is that our land has given, as we have; given until it has almost given out. The war to the north is over. We must now turn our attention to our own lands, and our own needs. It is an unfortunate consequence of the events of the Wrath Gate that the Alliance has a fresh reason to oppose us. While I realize that to some of you this means nothing, and others are glad of it, I assure you that no one is glad of the fact that the night elves have, for the moment, shut down all trade avenues with us.”
Everyone present knew what that meant—no fresh lumber for building, no hunting rights in Ashenvale, no safe passage anywhere the Sentinels patrolled. There was silence for a moment, then unhappy murmuring.
It should be noted that this came before the duplicitous strike by the Twilight’s Hammer in the guise of the Horde, which crops up shortly thereafter.
Elenthas’s point aside, unless the Kalimdor Horde abandons any sort of industry and even the goblins are taught to live a sustainable tauren lifestyle, that’s going to remain the case. There’s no way that trade with the night elves is going to provide enough lumber to allow for the maintenance and expansion of the existing Horde civilisation, therefore they need to take matters into their own hands.
And so, there is always going to be conflict in Ashenvale between defenders of the sacred forest and orcs in need of a steady supply of lumber that other nearby regions just don’t provide enough of.
I’m fully aware there isn’t much point in helping drag the conversation around another circle…
But I’m gonna do it anyway! Call lazy Sunday afternoon vibes.
The desperate lack of resources to survive did -somewhat- justify Horde incursions. (Or at least made them understandable)
However, at this point they’ve fully occupied Azshara for years. They already have a zone full to the brim with lumber, mines, quarries, wildlife and fresh water. An entire zone to feed the Horde. Holding Eastern Ashenvale for resources has basically been redundant post-Cataclysm.
(Which itself is a moot point, because we know Blizzard will never address it.)
World of Warcraft: Draenor’s Return will take place after The Last Titan. With Outland’s breaking apart coming to a final head, the orcs and draenei still living there approach the forces of Azeroth with a desperate, insane plan: Move it to Azeroth.
We gonna plug the Maelstrom, once and for all.
It would appear that Aszhara is insufficient, for whatever reason. Again, Shattering novel:-
(Jaina speaking first, then Thrall - this is after the attack on the NElves now)
“Slaughtering night elves and removing their skins is in-kind retaliation for closed trade?” Her voice rose.
“Closed trade permits children to starve, to be exposed to the elements, to become sick. The logic… I can follow it. And so can others. If I were to condemn this attack openly, when it successfully provided something so desperately needed—it would seem as though I am condemning that need. I would look weak, and believe me, there are plenty who would like to take advantage of such a moment of perceived vulnerability. It is a treacherous path I walk, my friend. I must rebuke them—but only to a point. I will apologize for the violation of a treaty, but not for the theft, or even the murders or how they were performed.”
The implication is that Aszhara alone is insufficient to support the Horde/Orgrimmar, and that without the Night Elf trade, some are now starving and falling ill without adequate medicine. The convoy the Twilight’s Hammer attacked was carrying ‘harvested herbs and minerals’.
I was never onboard with the retconned reason as to why the Horde chose to settle in Durotar. In WC3 and early WoW it was because it reminded them of home (when Outland was in any form of canon mostly shown as deserts and wastelands).
And now it’s because Thrall wanted to have everyone in the Horde serve some sort of penance for past atrocities, which is hilariously stupid because it will force the people living there to expand for resources, instigating new conflicts.
I belief it was Chronicles or another source that pointed that between War3 and Vanilla the Horde(Orcs) and Night Elves had a trade treaty for Lumber, but since the lumber coming from the Night Elves was both to little and was to slow to come, the Horde had to restart their lumber operations and thus come into conflict with the Night Elves which stopped the trade treaty and was one of the assumed reasons the Night Elves joined the Alliance instead of neutrality or Horde!
Now I’ll be honest and say I do not know if this is RPG-, Chronicles or any other source or if its retconned already. But I do remeber the above being the case at one point in Warcraft history!
I suppose there is, but even so, the Night Elves, per Cataclysm Stonetalon Mountain, have a reference point of what would happen to Ashenvale if they let the Horde roam around and continue their lumber operations in Ashenvale, since a whole forest was cut down by the Horde in no time. And it is, after all, the Night Elves their home they are defending.
So yes, I understand where the Horde are coming from, but I would stand on the side of the Night Elves for this. Especially when there are other area’s which could provide the Wood they need. Dustwhallow Marsh is a complety Horde controlled zone.
Yea Azshara was a gift given to the Horde as reward for losing the war.
Not that it would matter, since Azshara basicly had no NElf presence and the one village that they did have there was destroyed by Illidan and the Naga in War3!
Dustwhallow Marsh would’ve been the best area for Orcs to settle in, ngl! Resources aplenty, forests to waste, dragons to kill! If anything it was probably closer to Draenor then Durotar ever was or will be!
They could also start to grow a forest there. It may not work in the first twenty years, but after that they would have lumber.
And at this stage, with telemancy networks and whatnot, they could just ask the zandalari for some spare wood.
But I am thinking too hard here, the plot today is what it is - at the time it was actually interesting to read about the war being motivated by a lack of resources, among other things.
Azshara is a ridiculous zone. The goblins turn up after the Cataclysm and almost immediately manage to terraform the entire region with massive quarries, a mountain face transformed into a goblin’s likeness, a sprawling golf course somehow maintained on top of said mountain and the entire region being remade to look like the symbol of the Horde from a bird’s eye view. It’s all quite idiotic.
But the fact that the lumber effort in Ashenvale remains a plot point and is something that the Horde still maintains throughout and after Cataclysm might be a sign that the lesser woodland of Azshara is not enough to sustain the Horde.
… And as an example of how the narrative focuses primarily on the consequences of the Horde’s actions, isn’t it incredible how the dwarves and humans are all able to have such sprawling, non-sustainable civilisations without significant ecological damage to the environment around them?
Despite wood being a major component in human buildings, Elwynn is lovely and forested, with the Eastvale Logging Camp barely making a dent in the woodland. In fact, that logging camp remains a rather idyllic place, unlike the smoky, devastated, wasteful and brown Warsong Lumber Camp in Ashenvale.
That’s just basic sustainable logging though, I think its much more of a Horde skill issue if the Horde genuinely somehow doesn’t know how to partake in sustained logging practices (that are good for both the environment being logged and all your resource needs).
So Stormwind City and all of its surrounding settlements were rebuilt over the course of a very short twenty years through entirely sustainable logging, mining and quarrying?
They might have a thing or two to teach the humans of the real world when it comes to sustainability, because that’s downright miraculous.
