no problem when you like to waste your time but please dont drag me into that thanks
there is no point in trying to balance tanks and even give them heals. They are not made for arena like gameplay.
im glad its over
not possible since you cant just change a spec completely since they have to play a role in pve too.
its not a pathetic excuse. Games with no healers are just zugfests with no tactics involved at all. There are many specs that just dont work without having a healer and their experience is completely ruined when playing with some useless tanks.
you can still play as a blood dk you just dont ruin the game for everyone else.
I’m sorry I didn’t express myself well let me answer briefly so that it is understood.
1-I dont want insta que , to be put as dps, it doesn’t bother me, nor does it bother me that the general idea that a tank is not for pvp, and only the idea that something that is vocally louder even if it is a minority or a majority will cover each other depends how loud you scream, and any attempt to improve will be covered.
2-Catch a tank in n matches, he’s a fool, the man is crazy, there’s only one tank per match, offer a tool to compensate because he’s a tank and not a dps or a healer, an example maybe stupid, make my taunt force one of the opponent’s dps , to attack only me for a while, I can’t get heal, and I get more dmg taken so as to compensate for the fact that I’m a tank and I already take less dmg, the player has a chance to kill me and reducing the pressure on the healer or dps in my team which is focused by 2 dps players, give me a tool to compensate for my lower dmg by reducing the dmg received by the players who are in my team , there are many solutions, only this bothers me the most, no they say that nothing can be done, it just has to be removed. I’m not saying that you see how good it will be, a utopian world, and that you see how good a tank in pvp will be, but try to see the other side of the problem, not just what you want (not you the person now)
I’m trying to explain, as you can see from the answers I received, that the community immediately rejects any idea, be it good or bad, that you see, it’s not going to happen or that it’s impossible.
The part with the heal was stupid on my part, I don’t want to be a healer, it was a kind of bad example, now I realize. I’m just trying to bring to the surface that something can be tried, things can change for better or for worse, the tank has been considered pve since it was known, as you say and everyone unfortunately (for you) can enter match with you, why shouldn’t that 0.5% that you catch in the match be able to play this style of game at a mediocre level and not be frustrating for you that they do nothing. although if people complained that there are too many tanks and that they destroy the game in pvp why not make them as much as possible focused on support. I think there are more people who want to play, maybe because they like that class and have the pleasure of playing pvp (and not because it’s an easy class and because it’s a free win), to all the topics that address something similar to me, purely and there is simply no middle way and only the part that is right in their own way but they don’t want to understand that maybe even though there are few or more players like me as a tank, I don’t want to make your life miserable because you caught me in the match, and I want those who want this style of play to protect teammates or control the enemy team by forcing them to attack me. to have a small niche that is not fundamentally hated by everyone. , I don’t want my class to be super good and overall the tank has a place there small in pvp and to make sense to be there without being beaten, humiliated, and put against the wall for the pleasure of playing something.
Because having one tank per game is not balanced. And that’s why you’re happy about the change, because it makes you giddy knowing the tank will automatically lose. Just like it would be stupid if each game had one healer. It’s an indirect way to remove tanks from solo shuffle while claiming “nooo they can still queue haha”. The only way it was balanced when both sides had a tank.
You do realise you just explained shadowy duel but with an added extra dmg taken on the tank for the duration of it, right? That’s not something to be given to tanks. At all. Not to mention the impact that’d have on RBGs, imagine an FC using shadowy duel to avoid the group PvP fights and escape, it’d be insanely overpowered in large-scaled PvP and insanely toxic in deathmatch PvP if it doesn’t make you die by using it, but with a tank’s survivability that’s very unlikely.
Ironic that you say that, considering you show no understanding of PvP designs in a macro scale. In other words, you keep asking for tanks to be made broken, no matter how much worse it makes the gameplay overall for everyone else.
Yeah, after you get it explained to you. Problem is, it can be explained to you for everything you say. There’s never a good reason to make tanks viable as tanks in deathmatch PvP.
To make them work in deathmatch PvP, Blizzard would either have to turn down all survivability, including turning off dodge, turning off parry, turning off block, tuning down the selfheals, and turning down armor values, to a regular DPS, and make them into a literal peel bot - which doesn’t fit PvE and tanks have already said they don’t like that in PvP - or Blizzard simply have to turn off the tank role from deathmatch PvP altogether.
It’s simply antithetical to the purpose of deathmatch PvP.
They already are heavily focused on support. Every single tank spec. Blood DKs are pure cancer with their grips and slows and how they aren’t viable kill targets despite it, guardian druids are offhealers, prot palas are offhealers, prot warrs are more about crowd control, BM monks are more about damage mitigation and crowd control (although the damage mitigation is mostly anti-physical, not a lot of anti-magic tools), and so on.
They all have something they excel at support-wise. If you can’t make use of that, then that’s a you issue, not a design issue.
But if they’d make tanks into walking IWin-buttons, then that’d literally ruin deathmatch PvP for everyone else. Tanks are simply not supposed to be strong while also being TANKS. It doesn’t work in deathmatch PvP.
No, it was guaranteed wins for tanks that they never deserved in the first place. That isn’t “balanced”, it’s just dysfunctional designs. Besides, you can still get your guaranteed wins as a prot pala. Tank queues haven’t been removed, just limited to prot palas only.
What they’ve accomplished with this change in the queues, is that there’s a higher amount of average healing in every shuffle, which lets more specs work. It also keeps you non-prot pala tanks on ratings, which is hilarious.
What makes you think the tank will automatically lose? I mean, Guardian is probably one of the best dps ingame right now. Not sure how things are on level 70 but I wouldn’t expect that tanks are so far behind.
I realize, it’s impossible, even impossible to make a tank in pvp, I’m thinking now if the doungen are from when the game was made, were they just a way to get items before the raid, now after 18 years I haven’t thought about it to do anything with them, you know, that’s the way dungeons have always been, but wait 6 years ago, M+ was introduced, imagine changing something that was established before.
They are still dungeons, besides, why bother to balance a new game mode if there is already a raid?
What are you talking about now? They fit just fine in objective-based PvP. A lot of PvP games out there have tanks, whether it’s heroes, equipment, or whatever else turns something into a tank. They key though is that it’s objective-based PvP, which is where tanks have a natural place to fit in. Easiest example is carrying flags, they fit like a glove for that role.
The problem is when you mix tanks into deathmatch PvP. That’s what arenas are. Where you play until death, and don’t have an automatic resurrection like in objective-based PvP, for example in WoW’s BGs there’s an angel that resurrects players every 30s.
So when it’s all about just killing the opponents, you have a natural place for the DPS role since it leads to quick-paced action, and then the healer role since it leads to more tactics becoming possible and adds more layers onto the gameplay to make it more immersive. The healer role prevents the need to design DPSers with so much selfhealing that they can survive anything, because that would lead to both horrible gameplay as well as a nightmare to design for PvP, because someone must eventually win.
But then you get the tank role. There’s no place for them in deathmatch PvP, it’s a role with the fundamental purpose to survive whatever damage they eat, and to draw damage to them so that the DPSers and healers won’t have to be attacked.
So when Blizzard designs the tank role as strong hybrids like they did for all of 'em since the Legion redesigns, it still keeps 'em tanky, yet also gives 'em damage output, healing output or CC output, and often a mix of some or all of them. Guardian druids are a good example right now of what it looks like when that goes so horribly wrong design-wise.
They are literally designed to be in people’s faces yet able to survive anything and everything thrown at them, which if they have gear then they will always survive it. They’ll never be kill targets EVER, as long as they’ve got gear. The only tanks complaining about dying with the damage taken increase in arenas, are only the ones without gear, or those who doesn’t know how to press their buttons.
They’re antithetical to the purpose of deathmatch PvP in itself. But they fit in objective-based PvP, because there it’s about raid PvP and tanks can’t survive that many damage sources. But deathmatch PvP isn’t like that, there they’ve got way too much survivability for the purpose of the game mode itself.
Well, I apologize for offending the great divine work that the great 3v3 gods worked on, the strategies in it are super complex and I personally don’t know them because they are hidden in the dark and especially they will be reflected in the solo shuffle. We’re on a forum playing a game, I’m going to stop here because it’s clear that there isn’t even 1% understanding of what I’m saying and what I’d like it to be (for example, with the taunt, I didn’t say that the enemy team can’t attack you and only that player is forced to attack you and you dont get healing , so in RBG a tank will never use this), + that realistically in RBG only 1 tank is played, and that’s very good, you can, you can play the rest, no one is stopping you. But here we are talking about another mod, not RBG, in which it was made clear from the beginning that there will also be tanks, I try to bring maybe a good or bad idea, you only bring counter-arguments, bypassing whatever I say, have a good day great pvp guys.
They’ll never be targeted, and even if you add another layer of damage taken increase of the taunt itself it’ll still only last for the duration of the taunt, while it shuts a DPS down for the duration of it and it’s not like there’s any point in attacking the damn tank.
Make taunt last 30s, no healing taken neither from selfhealing nor from other healing sources for the tank, and you can be attacked as the tank during that time from the entire enemy team, then sure, you can have that.
The fundamental problem is that tanks as a role doesn’t fit in deathmatch PvP as long as they’re tanky. Which is the entire role to begin with. So either they get turned into a DPS, like explained here already:
or the role needs to be disabled from deathmatch PvP. The players aren’t discriminated against, it’s the role that doesn’t work in it. This isn’t vanilla, you can hop to another spec to play another role VERY EASILY. So all players would still be able to queue for it. Just not as tanks.
It’s unfortunately not the way Blizzard went with it, but they secured better average healing for all shuffle matches with the recent changes so for now that’s good enough. You PvE tanks belong at the bottom of the ladder, you aren’t entitled to any rating whatsoever. Too bad prot pala tank shuffles are still a thing, but it’s good enough for now.
Nobody likes to play vs. tanks. They do decent damage, they can live forever, and they are just super annoying in general. They are incredibly easy to play, and the role is astonishingly forgiving in case you actually mess up. On top of this it affects classes that are reliant on healers to perform well, e.g. warriors.
Just shove all the tanks into a 3v3 tank game, and they can have all the “fun” they want without being a nuscience to the rest of the playerbase. They would probably bawl their eyes out because of this, but then they can always swap to DPS or healer. Problem solved.
You do realise that you are basing this off numbers from the pre-season solo shuffle, right? Barely anyone is playing right now, let alone solo shuffle. Once Dragonflight season 1 rolls around, queues are not going to be a problem.
Besides, queues are not nearly as bad as you make them out to be. Queues earlier today were 10 minutes for DPS. If I had to guess, you probably took this picture at 5 AM on a weekday.
What causes long queues in shuffle can be a mixture of things. But it isn’t the participation numbers per se.
For instant queues, as long as it doesn’t cause server queues (i.e. that the servers can’t keep up with the demand) then for every 2 DPS, there needs to be 1 healer or 1 prot pala queuing. For every 1 prot pala, there needs to be another prot pala queuing. For every non-prot pala tank, there needs to be 3 dps and 2 healers queuing.
And this is just what’s needed in the same starting matchmaking parameters, for there to be instant queues.
So if there’s 4 dps for every 1 healer or 1 prot pala, queues increase a bit. If there’s an uneven amount of prot palas, queues can increase a bit more for the people the system is planning to match up with that prot pala that hasn’t found a matching prot pala yet.
And this can be different between different rating ranges. So one range can have a perfect mixture of DPS and healers and prot palas, while another might have too many healers and prot palas, while another might have too many DPSers.
So what the system does, is that the longer time a player spends in the queue, the more it expands the matchmaking parameters ±, until it finds a match. Which affects other ranges too.
Anyway, high ratings very often tends to have poor queue times.
But I’ve already explained to that DH tank, however he’s just a really sore loser who doesn’t understand what he’s told, that queue times will be adjusted by the player base itself eventually.
See, that DH tank is telling himself those self-comforting lies because he just can’t accept the fact that he’s the scum of arenas, and players don’t want him in it.
What’s funny is that I can already provide examples of how the player base adjusts it on their own:
^ That person has nothing to do with the conversation, but the impact it had on him to want to swap to healing sometimes is exactly the effect I described that’ll keep spreading in the player base, to varying degrees. The DH tank just doesn’t want to accept it.
I’m gonna play tank in solo shuffle in DF too, and I actually like the changes that we will queue as DPS now. I find tanks to be support role, like shadow priests a bit. Not that much dmg, but they can accelerate their team mates.
And honestly, just don’t care about what people say, this forum is toxic, and their only fun in life is complaining. If not tanks, they will find something else.
Not to mention that games with tanks are actually much more dynic than e.g. pillar hugging, or hiding in Stealth untill your CDs are back.
Lastly, dampening starts from the very first minute in solo shuffle, so every game will be short.
Did you not play during SL? Tank specs have been part of the meta and even being some of the strongest specs throughout most of the seasons. In recent years there’s always been some dumb interaction where people find ways to “exploit” tank specs to make them way stronger than a normal spec in certain compositions. Prot paladin being a very strong healer, even stronger in some cases than holy paladin. Guardian druid aoe dpsing entire teams down while being CC immune cause of the legendary. Blood dks spam gripping people and chaining them with the pvp talent to oneshot people with the Demo burst…
These are all examples from SL, and Im certain there’s more. The fact that you see a reason to look for stronger tank specs makes me laugh. For a while in DF prepatch just after rated solo shuffle being released half the people I played with and againts were guardian druids at 2k+ mmr. If you’re deadset on playing a tank and you want to HEAL your team m8s just play any other tank and you can do so. Would you like to see death coil heal people to the same extent your death strike does? Lmao
Don’t forget veng dh. Might not deal as much dmg and its healing isn’t always that high but their utility is extremely annoying. They’re mobile af and have stuff like ilidans grasp and sigil of silence which is a 6 sec AoE-silence on 1 min CD. I had some solo shuffles in SL (when it was still unrated) with a veng dh and he just tunneled the healer all game while doing substantial healing and easily silenced him every time with imprison+sigil…
ratings, which is hilarious.