You’re contradicting yoursself here. if you’re against implementing them, why creating such a topic to begin with? And arguing people over it? And your examples as some people provided were used entirely on mages.
Shaman has completely different fantasy and setting about them.
I think the same as well, but it seems that Blizzard have got their intended route with the Horde Magi and they do seem keen on letting the Horde in on the ancient Kaldorei Empire’s Magic, with actual ancient Kaldorei.
As you say, they seem very focused on having the mage thing, be Nightborne central, because everything we saw in Suramar was and still is, Arcane focused.
The guy maintaining the portal room in that portal room, troll hall is a Nightborne. The leader of the Nightborne is a Mage. Many of her loyalists are Mages.
I agree with you on this. The last thing i wanted was the nightborne to become blood elf sidekicks or effectively blood elves with no distinction between the two save for the model. Which is a shame as it seems the kaldorei aspect of the nightborne ended with the draining of the nightwell in 7.2 and the Arcan’dor cure. Post 7.2 nightborne seem a different bunch, keen to re-invent themselves - which is a bit sad, unless blizzard properly intend to show the full portrayal of anceint kaldorei civilization on the night elf kaldorei faction with some soon to come developments - something I 100% support and feel should be.
The kaldorei have extensive lore, extensive arcane, nature druidic, fel and priestly lore. The pre-sundering era had all of these except fel, so the nightborne should have a connection to kaldorei priest as well as druidsm in some form, though the kaldorei arcana is their main thing, that aracna is quite extensive and distinctive too.
It has its own flavour, architecutre, style, lore, combo that is very different to the Thalassian even though the thalassian arcana developed from the night elf one [it was not a smooth conversion fgor those who don’t know, they didn’t know all the knowledge]. Suramar, the nightborne, the kaldorei empire, all very different in feel and lore to Silvermoon, the blood elves, Quel’thalas - having them on the horde should bring a slice of the kaldorei to the horde and give them access to night elf world lore and participation that previously horde fans may not have had. However if the identity of the horde elves is to be blood elven based, then the nightborne would indeed find htemselves more a part of hte blood elves. I can only hope the ngiht elves on the alliance would then properly show and far better too, or grow to show both the full aspect of the pre-sundering era (through the highborne and a part of the priesthood) AND the long vigil through the druids and a part of the priesthood). I assume void elves would have a very void related destiny and idneitty.
I really love the nightborne being around though, and that they show this part of the Kaldorei visually, it’s great it is in the game as i love this even while I hop the kaldorei themselves will gain some of their own cool high fantasy cities, towns and architecture for them.
But i also very much love that the kaldorei themselves have this aspect of themselves back via the highborne, because it is very rich lore, it is their lore, and it sure has hell makes them less one dimensional too.
I also love that it gives them a high magic fantasy side but also gives them hope for recovering from their worse calamity, which is a great story - the way they had to stop using the arcane, to protect the world. Given how they use to live, and how good they were at this it’s a lovely to see.
It also is a side of them that matches them. It would feel wrong if the main night elf group with all its arcane history, it’s arcane basic set up, all the agony of addiction, the legion and triumphing over that, that their greatest asset and power couldn’t play a part in their future at all. That they were locked only into the Long vigil part of their story.
That they never progressed to combine the best of both their arcane and nature legacy.
For this reason I love that the highborne, moonguard, farondis have all returned to the world and some of them back to the night elves. I mourn that the shal’dorei are not on their faction atm, but i do like that the others are there.
I’m also quite pleased that each of the highborne and arcane groups have something different and particular to them, it makes them feel wider and more diverse. The Moonguard are the combat specialists, the Shend’ralar are the great architects and wonder makers of the kaldorei empire and their existence and return makes the night elves rebuilding their city dwellings in the high fantasy grandeur they once were possible. Meanwhile the Farondis signify a pure version of the highborne. What they were before the group got reckless. The Farondis were the only highborne group to rebel against hte queen and show no signs of the typical hubris and callousness that overcame the Queen and much of the caste. You can even tell how different he comes across to Elisande. He’s far more noble and wise. Meanwhile she is shrewd and pragmmatic. He is also quite powerful. The short outing of him we gives you impression he aint a Prince for nothing.
I don’t find it true, I mean yes Blizz wants to implement allied races to actively do something to remind that they’re a thing. So the fact that NB are now around doesn’t mean that other horde mages are completely irrevelant.
It’s like saying that with Mag’har orcs all technological stuff should be made by them, and goblins are no longer a thing.
But they can coexist and each one has it’s own use and metheds and purposes.
I’m against homogenisation and I’m always for everyone to get their time to shine.
That makes sense for Horde mage to open portals - Zandalari might not know exact locations of Horde capitals to open portal from their city and those needed to be opened immediately and they picked the best person for that purpose.
But Zandalari are now channeling portal to their city in Portal room and previously it was also NB in cleft of shadows.
That’s true, but it’s still a Nightborne maintaining the portal connection between Orgrimmar and Zuldazar.
But Arcane will be their clique.
Other races will get lore development (I’m not expecting Orcs or Trolls anytime soon), but for much of the Arcane stuff, it is Nightborne.
But in the way of that can come personal biases.
I mean, would you prefer a Darkspear Troll outshining a Nightborne Elf in the field of the Arcane? I wouldn’t because it would de-value what the Nightborne bring to the Horde table.
That’s the same for any race.
I get it. You like Trolls and want them to have their moments, but you risk annoying fans of other races for your personal push. This is what has happened for the Alliance races.
Personal biases have led to Humans being the best are everything and the whole thing is “Humans and friends.”
No I want for trolls to get their own lore on their magi explored separate from elves. They even have Arcane like Loa with Zanza the restless who’s enchants were superior to elven.
It’s like with technology, there is a difference with goblin creations and mag’har iron Horde technology. If they can coexist then so can various mage practices.
They’re apart of the Horde and have their cliques in other fields of excellence.
The beauty of the Horde is just how diverse it’s family of outcasts are and what each brings is a relative of expertise in their fields. Under this, I do not think a society of Arcanists, where leaders are Magi, their race is about Magi, should be about to be pushed aside for another race, who have their expertises in other skills
Also, like Humans, we’ve just had two major continents that relate to Trolls and Humans. After this expansion, I’m done with these races for the time being and we should explore other things.
Nobody is taking away elven magi, if that is upsetting you then I suppose you’d have problem with any other race that has access to mage class. If certain race has access to mage class then I believe it should be explored. It has nothing to do with taking a trope from elves being magical society.
Are Dark Irons sorcerers also issue for you? They’re different than elven magi and yet they were the magi dwarves.
Zandalari had mages long before elves even existed.
Undead mages were raised from Dalaran former apprentices.
They aren’t invalid just becuase they’re not elves. Elves are magical society and it is their niche and nobody will take that from it, but I don’t see any harm in exploring differences between various class combos.
Just like there will be different fighting style between orc warrior and human warrior or nelf warrior.
But we can be here until the end of time for every race/class combo to get their own story. Then what happens if people don’t find it satisfactory…? We have to go over it again. It’s like those who want a second referendum because they weren’t happy with the first. Is it the best of 3, the best of 5, stories that you want, until we can move on to something else.
We’ve got to move on now.
No, we really need to move on from that now. Yes, races do have access to certain classes. No, we shouldn’t spend patches and expansions going over each individual one. It’s boring.
We should focus on primary, most loved assets from each race which can help the story flow and deal with the “big bad” of said expansion/patch.
It doesn’t have to take entire expansion to explore, single quest would do. Did Aldie or whatever that gnome hunter quest chain in Highmountain harm any narrative? Did it invalidate other hunters?
So I’ll repeat that just because elves have the biggest knack for magic and that their society is established around it, doesn’t mean that other races are irrevelant and should be ignored forever. If you could tell the difference between elven magic practice, dark iron magic practice, orgre gorian empire magic practice I’m sure that troll magic techniques would be as different and yet in tune on what class is about.
I agree with this. And I really don’t like people feeling that because nightborne mages exist, blood elves are irrelevant or night elves shouldn’t have mages… just like i hated the approach when Draenei priests came in that all of a sudden night elf priesthood had no development, prominence or roles.
As if draenei, night elves, humans, blood elves can’t all have priesthoods but different versions. Like nightborne, night elves and blood elves most only have one race with mages that the other has to lose. Nightborne/night elf magecraft has a very different feel to blood elf/high elf/human and each of these have different expressions. Nightborne and night elf are different expressions of hte kaldorei magecraft, human, blood elf, high elf are different expressions of the high elf magecraft. etc
As am I, not only should everyone get their turn to shine, they should all have their own unique expressions of how they do and handle things… because they are their own race, they have physical differences not just cultural or sociological /philosophical ones too.
Anything that brings this out I welcome. I don’t care if all races had access to all the available class playstyles, as long as they had interesting unique lore or versions of classes that portrayed that lore.
Yes, that was until the new portal rooms came in, when the Zandalari had officially joined, and ofc would now know Orgrimmar.
But it shouldn’t be brought in just for the heck of it, either.
It’s got to make sense. Failure to make sense and it’s just a big “WTF…”
Dark Iron Magic is actually more in tune with Shamanism and Fel.
Not apart of the factions and that’s what we’re focusing on.
We don’t know that and at this stage, it’s not an avenue I’m ready to explore. Again, we shouldn’t throw things in randomly.
You might get Troll Mage lore at some point, but it’s not going to be yet and I’m doubtful about it appearing in the next expansion. Blizzard learned about “Orc Fatigue” with MoP and WoD. “Human Fatigue” appears to becoming and the other races are far from being out of the woods for also having their own fatigue.
Blizzard have to tread carefully.
But from Zuldazar’s end, Oculeth is still maintaining the portals.
Elves should not be shamans, it’s not too much to ask that you have to have 1 alt that isn’t an elf is it?
Yes, I agree with you on this one. I feel trolls could have had a unique and separate arcane development than elves. It is in this instance I am more open to troll mages. It’s not about whether they are greater than elves or not at it.
That can change, (look at how night elves who are still provable to have achieved the most with the arcane are often dropped out of arcane lists because people think that has changed despite lore of highborne groups returning.
I wanted to see more of the arcanitols for instance and what their ore was.
But this is the sentiment I feel for elves getting shaman. I would rather it be their own lore or their own way. It is EXACTLY what you are saying but for the shaman class. IF you actually feel that way about mages, but disagree about the access to the shaman class then you’re being hypocritical.
I conditionally agree with this in 2 main ways.
It is acceptable for other races to have that thing as part of their defining feature, what is homogenus is if it becomes a defining feature of EVERY race. If a race known for other things becomes could at arcane magic, that can be okay, if they do that with every race then it becomes homogenus. Orcs can have mages but it would eat away at the uniqueness of the arcane being an Elven thing if they and every other race became great at it. this is not the same for individuals. You can have a great orc mage, and having a great orc mage shouldn’t mean that orcs become talented with magic. [
this is not an analogy to night elves ofc, night elves by lore are naturally gifted with the arcane, they are not a race new to the arcane. Though the long vigil group banned it for 10k years, they have remained quite talented at the arcane and still infused with the Well’s power, furthermore the race has other night elven groups who are entirely famous and well established with the arcane… this isn’t new, this was part of night elf lore from their introduction
I agree with you and I approve this message.
But the problem you’ve got here is the ideas you’ve listed are far too tied to the Arcane - aka, Mages.
You listed the Star guy from Nighthold who was an Astromancer. Astromancers, like their Blood Elf counterparts, is a school of arcane magic. It doesn’t tie into the elements or anything Shamanistic in anyway, shape or form.
Then what other time is better to explore it when we’re in cradle of troll civilization? We see Arcanitals roaming the streets? Why not a single quest or WQ to see how they’re working?
Not really, it was believed that the king that summoned Ragnaros could be considered first of the shamans. But dark irons are the sorcerers of dwarves. My point was just because other race have it it doesn’t mean that they’re elven copycats.
Just like blood knights aren’t dilluting Knights of Silver hand, nor are Sunwalkers and deffinietly not Zandalari Prelates.
This is not a random thing. That is established lore since Vanilla. Adding one exta quest for reference wouldn’t hurt at all. Heck even professions could’ve explore the background of Zandalari magic practices via enchanting profession.
Why not using Zanza when he was the very first Zandalar loa to appear in game in old Zul’Gurub?
I have no idea what you’re talking about. How having one extra NPC or quest would have anything to do with fatigue? Zandalar still didn’t cover a lot of fields of their culture and people were complaining about that. And I believe few additional stuff wouldn’t harm at all, especially considering that we won’t have such a chance anytime soon.
But we’re slowly getting away from that as we approach Nazjatar and Mechagon.
Blizzard had a chance to develop it and they simply didn’t. They focused on the Loa Priests, Shadow Hunters, War Druids, Prelates and Guardians. That is what they chose to do.
Because we’re moving to different places in 8.2. We’ve just had a huge amount of troll lore.
Well, you are in for a wait.
Blizzard seems happy with their chosen routes for the Troll lore thus far. I’m happy with it. I’m far happier with this than the Alliance KT Lore.
With Nazjatar coming and seemingly, Old God involvement after that which will likely involve more of Sylvanas and Saurfang, it seems clear where the story is going, even after 8.2 and it isn’t Troll Magi.
Well, it’s hardly new. Races have been like this for years.
Blood Elves have had access to Warlocks since 2007, yet they haven’t had a story around Blood Elf Warlocks since 2008.
By saying this, that means we open the door for other race/class combos that equally need to be explored.
We’ve got:
Lightforged Draenei Hunters
Blood Elf Warlocks
Nightborne Rogues
Tauren Death Knights
Darkspear Troll Warlocks
Orc Mages
All of these are something that equally deserve something.
There were was no lore development for Shadow hunters, Darkspears had few cameos but that’s it. And yeah we might go to Nazjatar and Mechagon soon but that still leaves door open so long Zandalari are involved. There is never too late to have some story about it. For example Tauren Sunwalkers have bigger spotlight exampsion later when they were implemented. Half of the Zone was about Dawnshaser expedition having a stand.
The expansion is not over though, and there is still conflict in the background.
Well and as a troll geek I figured out that at least 1/3 of Zandalari lore and stuff was unexplored.
Except I never wanted single patch dedicated for Troll mages, just addition of One NPC or one flavor text to explore on how they work. That can be done anytime. Via new invasions, new content. As likely Horde and Alliance will clash again so nothing stops from implementing finally Zandalari on battlefield to get their vengeance.
I can sympathize with it, and this is why I really disliked the Order Halls. The biggest artrocity was priest order hall as they lumped all of the priests in one place. I found no logical sense in making Priestess of Elune wroking together with let’s say forsaken cultist of forgotten shadow, or Loa priest. Those people would sooner fight each other and not have any common ground.
but I digress. As for belves - I guess since Sunwell patch they continue to lose more and more of their ties to fel practice.
You have my full support.
When you thought it couldn’t get any crazier…
Elves don’t revere their ancestors, they don’t really care about the Elements, and they don’t have a spiritual lifestyle like Orcs, Tauren and Trolls have. I fail to see how manipulating stones with Arcane can be twisted in a notion of shamanism.