It all depends on Azshara’s role in the faction war, how high the tensions are and what happens after we either kill her, or she escapes.
As it stands, we can’t truly point at how the factions will be feeling after Azshara - only that we do know where the story is likely to be heading.
But is that technically bad, because the parts they fleshed out, was done quite well.
In the current times, sometimes when Blizzard don’t touch something in regards to a race/class combo, it’s for the better.
Which is carrying over to 8.2, which will involve Azshara’s character in some way.
Of course there is tension. The Night Elves attacked the Forsaken to retake Darkshore and Kul’Tiras killed Rastakhan.
And this is exactly what Night Elf Priests had in Legion. A few cameos.
Thus far, the only characters where story is continuing is Sylvanas, Saurfang, Jaina and Anduin and the races that have been mentioned have been Gnome and Tauren, the former for Mechagon and both for heritage armor, as well as Night Elves and Nightborne in Nazjatar. We’ll also have the creatures of Nazjatar who join the factions, who will also warrant story.
No mention of the Zandalari involvement has been made as of yet.
Mmmm nope, I think this part should be explored as well, just like Zandalari shamans, since we see both classes in Throne of Thunder but they’re just token NPCs in their own capital. So yeah I wish those two has at least 2-quests of a lore.
At least they had temple of Elune and pillar of creation. It’s better than just NPC with name above it but nothing of substance.
And this is the minimal thing I wanted myself.
Someone will have to carry us there to Nazjatar, and it was hinted that’s going to be on KT and Zandalari ships.
Yes, it’s tied to the arcane because it is via the arcane the night elves wielded elements, not via the elemental spirits - so while this class may play like a shaman, it definitely isn’t a shaman. it’s just the shaman playstyle with similar spells, but an arcane based calss.
The night elves didn’t have to have only one expression of mage hood, we know they had many, there were temple mages, there moonguard battle mages, there were spell blades, there were star augurs, there were astromancers, arcanists, conjuerers, Suramar reveals a host of different applicatons of mage magic use.
If rogues, demon hunters , warriors can all use swords but be different classes, why can’t the elves have another class that uses the arcane?
I n htis case it would be an elemental mage or .
It doesn’t have to tie to shamanism necessarily. Augurs are like spiritual leaders, the first Augurs we see are Furbolgs in Teldrassil, they slap down totems and cast shaman like spells, a star augur is just an elaborate version of that that uses stars instead of totems, and stellar magic instead of elemental.
While I built most of htis concept around wielding elements, it isn’t necessary that this be the approach of the class, instead of fire/earth/wind/water they could instead use starfire, stellar winds, moonsurges, star rain.
Or you can design the evlen version to use the arcane. in many ways. THis is not a new concept. Elven druids use the arcane for part of their spell kit, and night elf priests do, an elven based class, lost to the long vigil group could resurface with the returned highborne, moonguard and nightborne and form the bases for the elven version of shamansim.
in the piece above i outland where the elemental magic would come from, where the enhancement stuff would come from and the restoratioin stuff.
The Star Augur could embody the restoration version, the Spellblade the enhcancement version, and an arcane elementalist for the Elemental speciailiation, I go into more detail about it.
And this is why they aren’t actually shaman, they are an elven equivalent or elven version of it. But it’s not that shamanism. There’s is based on the arcane and is a different class the produces the same/similar effects in totally different way, via arcane magic.
I mean I did say they are NOT shaman, but they are a way of the elves playing the shaman playstyle.
version of shaman (they aren’t shaman, they are an elven equivalent that uses the elements and elementals via the arcane, and in this scenario it extends to all elves, because the source of htis comes from the night elven arcane wielders, it comes to the alliance elves via the Shen’dralar, Farondis and Moonguard arcane wielders - and comes to the horde elves via the nightborne.
If you read my OP, the background i propose was that this was one of the many lost avenues of arcane usage lost to the long vigil group that returns when the shen’dralar come out of hiding and further enhanced by the discovery of the Farondis and Moonguard remnant, the nighborne who are night elves bubbled away from that era also retain this lost art - Star Augur Etraues and Spellblade Aluriel are examples of this. Their arts come from the kaldorei civilizaiton, not from nightborne improvements.
Aluriel is boasting of her astounding conquests of empires and her skills - she did not do this when turned into a nightborne, all this she does as a night elf. Star Augur Etraues does not have the stars to examine and peer into when he became a nightborne, his skill and discipline was established and perfected as a night elf of the kaldorei civilizaiotn - these arcane applications in Suranar city and the nighthold are Night elven arcane traditions the shen’dralar , moonguard and Farondis would also not have lost. Only the long vigil group - the people that become the Darnassians and Thalassians would have lost this. I assume you know why this is this case.
None of this involves using the actual Elements. Astromancy has nothing to do with this form of Shamanism.
Its “also known as astrology or astronomy , is divination and fortune-telling through the studying of stars.”
And Aluriel was just a talented Mage-Warrior/Battlemage. It doesn’t warrent the Elements as we know them and how actual true Shamans know them.
Again, this is a branch to the already established, Nightborne Mages.
To be honest, in my opinion, it would be a mistake. Shamanism is a -very- specific practice that really does not have any tie to any of the Elven cultures. Goblin Shamanism aside (and I don’t really think they should have Shamans either) it is all about ancestor worship and working with the elements. The closest thing you would get to ancestor worship is the Blood Elves with their whole ‘Remember the Fallen’ thing, but that’s not the same, that’s not worshipping them as spirits, that’s just, well, mourning the dead. Its no more Shamanic than the monument to Varian Wrynn.
Approaching it from the Elemental side also has its flaws. The way Mages use the Elements is not the same as the way a Shaman does, I believe it Jaina who is referred to when it is said that her water Elementals are not ‘proper’ Water Elementals, she’s not conjuring Spirits, she’s just using the arcane to fashion something that looks like one. Also there is the fact that for a time Fire magic was regarded most unfavourably, almost as if it were a ‘gateway’ to Blood Magic and later Fel magic.
There isn’t really any cultural imperative for Elven Shamanism, and it doesn’t -really- make that much sense, I mean the OP argues their point convincingly, but you’re still looking at some things that are just not part of the Elven makeup. Take it at its most basic. Totems. Totems are a massive part of Shamanism, both as the WoW Class, and as a Real life Religion. We don’t get any feel that the Elves -have- Totems as such, and why would they? The Kaldorei worship Elune, She is the focus of their belief. Those Blood Elves who are religious worship the Holy Light, that is the focus of their belief. In both cases it is Priests and Priestesses who most embody their faith and culture when it comes to religion, because Shamanism -is- a Religion, it is not just a way of chatting with fire spirits, it is something you have to fervently -believe- in. After all, we just saw what happened to the -World- Shaman, when he allowed doubts to settle in.
Neither Kaldorei nor Sin’dorei nor Shal’dorei nor Ren’dorei have any aspects keyed into that important factor.
Essentially what is being argued for is an expansion of the Mage specs. Instead of just Fire and Frost and Arcane, adding Air and Earth in there as well, and that really is taking something vast away from the Shaman Class, Because that is what it would mean, if you are talking about “They can do it because Arcane”, You’re then talking about Mages, not Shamans, a Shaman is something very specific, and fills a very important cultural role in their societies, a cultural role we have never seen the Elves to have.
It just, doesn’t make any cultural sense, and as a massive fan of world consistency, that sort of thing matters in my mind.
It was, as ever, a well thought out, executed and articulately put argument you make Kalibas, but I just don’t see it, myself…
Yes, that is right, the Farstriders are the kind of vestigial remnants of Druidry, they do actually have nature powers, this is directly referenced by the fact that Sylvanas -Lost- her Nature magic, and replaced it with Shadow magic upon becoming Undead, but as you rightly point out, Shamanism and Druidry are two very different things.
That doesn’t matter. The mage class applies forst and fie in the way the class does it.
This is not that, it is a different way arcane wiedlers use the elements that was lost to the playable kaldorei and high elves when the sundering happen, but survived with the hidden highborne and ghost highborne.
It really is just broadening as well as specialising hte elven mage order. The mage class you play doesn’t have to be the only type of Elven mage, there are other elven mage classes you don’t play, like an Arcanist, or an Astromancer, or a Conjuer…non elven mage classes you don’t play are Necromancers.
Just because it utilises the arcane doesn’t mean the only name and expressionf or it is mage. this is
These are just examples that you can adapt to the fleshing out of this class.
How many mages you have fought as bosses actually cast the spells in the mage class? they have a whole range of spells and abilities not accessible to your class.
As such, the Aluriel encounter doesn’t prevent the elven version of shamanism using the spellblade as its enhancement spec.
What is a spellblade? a person that enhances their weapon fighting with magic. This is essentially what the enhancement shaman does. While the enchnacement shaman utilises boosts from elemental energy bestowed by the elemental he has beseeched or reached an agreement with, the elven spellblade instead channels the elemental magic into his weapon as an enhacnement. We see the spell blade enhancing her abilities and fight with frost and fire magic. She cast very unique spells that the spellblade spec of the elven version of shaman doesn’t have to have. They would have an identical set to the shaman - possibly use different names if blizzard wants to.
It’s a naming
I think using hte term shaman is causing more confusion than its solving. All of this being part of hte nightborne mage deons’t mean it cannot be a part of the elven version of hte shaman which i have proposed to be a particular type of mage based class.
you can’t play have the abilities hte night elven mages a proported to have, nor any mage for example you can only do combat related things with your magic and few utility spells.
The current revealed examples of mages or anything for that matter is not all there has to be about mages. Blizzard can make elven magecraft far larger and more expansive encompassing many many forms of magic - because htis is what hte lore has already established about the night elven magecraft, they were able to do everything with the arcane, it means they found ways of using the arcane to do things they used other magic for.
You haven’t seen every expresion of this. and new groups bring new things that the develoeprs can add whenver htey want.
I may be more confusing than helping, best i can say is go through what i’ve written again.
Exactly, this is why it isn’t shamanism, it just does the similar things but in a very different way, the elven way.
It cannot be shamanism because shamanism is very specific and unique. This is why in order for the elven races to experience the playstyle mechanic of the shaman class, without breaking their lore or homogenising by saying they learnt shamanism by becoming spiritual with the elements.
So you invnet a new class for htem that does similar htings ina way elves do. The night elves mastered wielding the elements through arcane mastery, not elemental mastery, therefore their experts in it (who returned recently - shen’dralar, farondis, nightborne and moonguard) are who teach the kaldorei and the thalassians.
It isn’t hte shaman, but it is the same playstyle, similar spells. It is similar to what hte TIdesages are, when you play Kul’tiran Tidesage , shaman you are not playing an actual shaman you are playing a Tidesage, differnet philosophy, different everything, but same end result.
And we’ve seen plenty more of High Elf and Blood Elf Spellblades.
Accept we have seen High Elves and Blood Elves use these methods in their lore, so any backing for this would also extend to these Elves as they are Elves from Zin-Azshari.
As have High Elves and Blood Elves.
High Elves’ main Mage school was wielding Frost Magic and summoning Water Elementals.
They have also worked with Arcane Elementals as well. This is way before the Nightborne and after the Shen’dralar became relevant again.
But why do we need more versions of it when the Mage class does just fine.
The Shaman lore is already quite hard with the involvement of Draenei and Goblins. I’d rather not add more confusion and just stick to what we know.
And in this, your simply playing a Battle-Mage of sorts, by the sounds of things.
Neither have goblins, yet they get along just fine being shamans. If goblins can be shamans then every other living race should be able to be shamans too.
You may not like it but it is established lore that the elements do not require worship in the traditional sense to lend their power. Loa are the same thing. They strike bargains with everyone willing to pay the price for their favour. Every horde player has made bargains for power with the loa at this point.
Why is this system only ok to make goblin shamans and not shamans of other races?
Well I’m not a fan of Goblin Shamans either, a race-class combo that is far worse than Sunwalkers, but that doesn’t mean that all races can be Shaman.
As has been explained by previous posters, Shamans need a whole set of other beliefs related to Shamanism to be Shamans at all. Honouring their ancestors, and a personal relationship with the Elements, the latter being key to real Shamanism.
Mages conjure fire, wind, water, etc. but do not wield it through the Elements themselves. Elves are usually Mages, and suddenly a few turning Shaman is extremely odd and would require tons of retcons to be viable.
Except goblins, draenei, pandaren, kul’tiran and dwarves, I think, I’m not sure about them. There are many forms of shamanism in game. You cannot say I shall ignore this ones and just focus on the ones that I like. There’s more one way of being a shaman, but the goblin way could justify the class for every living race.
By the way Kalibas, I love the way you formatted the OP
But do you really want to support abominations? You can have your retcons but Blood Elves can already be as far as everything. They’ve 10/12 races already. That’s more as from the most other races have but nobody of them complain about it. Zandalocks were a thing but it’s over too.
And I know that Kalibas only want it because of this:
Make sense because of Nobundo teaching Shamanism in a rather spiritual and tribal way to the Draenei.
Unsure.
Blizzard wanted players to be able to play a Tidesage, and Restoration Shamans come very close to that fantasy.
Are closely related to Azeroth itself, and Wildhammer Dwarves are Shaman.
Such as?
Yes, let’s just give the class to all races, because one combo doesn’t make sense…?
So, since Sunwalkers don’t make a lot of sense, all races should be Paladins. And since Gilnean Druids are a bit odd, we might as well say that all races can be Druids. Gnome Priests are weird as well, why can’t all races be Priests? Orc Rogues? I can go on and on. So your reductio ad absurdum is odd, to say the least. And won’t hold.
While Kalibas is skilled in presenting his argument, the only thing he really points out is that Elves have used the Elements in the past. And sure, that’s true, as basically all races have done so, but without some other spiritual set of beliefs around Shamanism, they cannot be Shaman in even the broadest meaning of the word.
