No. Tank survivability is fine, as long as trash mobs donât have giga tank busters that require them to pull one pack at a time and kite.
I mean, i need to get the holy power to get shield up, donât i? So i blessed hammer so i go in with at least 3 holy power. Those 2 defensives of 1 minute CD arenât helping you from not getting clapped 100-0. And we are talking here about a +6 
I meanâŚyeah. But Judgement helps too, which is a ranged attack. So Pre-Hammer once â AS â Judgement â Hammer works just as fine. No need to exaggerate and spin hammers around till you get dizzy.
Otherwise, if you have Divine Toll available you donât even have to think all too much about it either.
Even though my relatively low ilvl (609-612), I havenât been slammed 100-0 yet. And +8 GB and CoT have been done. So, yes, they prob do help more than you think.
I think tanks need some lucrative benefits as a short term measure while for the long term they need to consider changing how M+ works and how it damages the relations between players
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When i do this, i get clapped before i have 3 holy power. All the buttons you call are on the GCD. The 3 seconds needed for the 2 extra holy power means just getting clapped to dead or almost dead. Then i prefer to hammer till i am dizzy before pull.
And yeah, obviously i AM using those 1 minute defensives. But i am getting sometimes clapped at pull it is unreal.
(on the grim batol +6 i was also 609)
Hence why I noted the ranged part. You obv donât start like this if you first walk into a pack. And if you do one pre-hammer you can do a SotR on the second GCD from then on. That should be more than fine, as its not on the GCD. So that leaves a gap of 1 GCD from the pre-hammer, no?
Also, wings is pretty much a defensive too. Extra Holy Power and extra crit which translates to parry.
If you consistently notice that you get clapped hard when pulling, you still may want to re-evaluate if you use the right abilities in the right sequence. And by using AS wisely while you engage a new pack, you can prevent a nasty cast from being tossed at you immediately.
I am not really seeing it. But it is also my first couple of weeks playing prot pala. For now i just get dizzy till 3 holy power. I throw shields, then shield of the rightous, and consecration. That seems to work.
I guess Blizzard are ok with a steady depopulation of the game then.
Oh well, I wasnât really into the idea of a goblin season anyway, I can unsub until 11.2 no biggie.
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yes A BIG YES.
PVP AND PVE.
one the reasons that a lot of world pvp players loved legion pvp season 1 and 2 was for this very reason.
STrong tanks in world pvp.
it was amazing.
me and my friend were going to that pvp quest zone near the towers in broken isle and do 2v8 and most of the time we were victorious.
it was so goodâŚ
damn i think i never see those days again.
40% more damage and healing done for pve and world pvp.
30% reduced all damage taken.
if they make this god it will be amazing.
Some people gonna hate, but kind of this, yes. I spend my day job being focused and thoughtful and attentive, Iâd like to log into WoW after work and my stress levels to reduce.
Iâd like the game to be pitched at a level where I can be a bit tired or tipsy or take 3 seconds to scratch my nose and my character wonât simply die and ruin the key.
And I want my character to get better as I invest time - i.e. I want loot to matter for survivability. I want having endgame gear to actually stop me getting oneshot because I took a sip of tea during a run and stood in a swirly. As a healer, I want to have the power to repair people because they took a sip of tea and stood in a swirly.
This M+ season demands my best performance and maximum focus to stay on a gearing treadmill where gear doesnât even feel strong. Itâs exhausting and unrewarding.
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Yet there is no evidence to say 11.2 would be any different. The neglect to react or respond by the developers seems to be a deliberate method to some unknown madness. What ⌠it is anyoneâs guessâŚ
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Damn, alts donât exist apparently.
Hopium, ngl.
My hope/belief is that the majority of the playerbase feels like I do; that they have times where they want to log in and play their rat alt, but then remember that M+ is too painful and decide not to bother.
If lots of other players are having the same level of disengagement and disinterest that I see in myself and my guild/community, it will show up on Blizzardâs metrics and eventually someone will ask why. And then there will be an investigation where they notice all the forum and reddit threads from the past few months, all the hundreds of youtube videos about how M+ is un-fun, and action will be taken.
I honestly expected that to happen before 11.1; this pattern isnât new, DF season 1 was also very punishing and followed by a much easier gearing track in 10.1.
Itâs disappointing to see Blizzard putting in so many other changes, most of them positive, but failing to talk about the fundamental problem that nobody wants to play tanks and healers rn. They can rework talent trees and crest systems all they like, but thatâs not why people donât want to play those roles.
But itâs all about tuning. M +10s are noticeably harder than the first 4 mythic raid bosses, so the problem is M+ not specs. Just reduce mob damage by maybe 25% and that would basically solve everything. Most players would jump up a couple of key levels, weekly 10s would stop being painful, and overall player happiness would increase.
We donât actually need tankier tanks or healier healers; we need less hurty enemies.
OTOH, maybe 90% of players are satisfied and silent because they are satisfied. We wonât know until something changes.
I think the game Blizzard should take inspiration from is Hades.
What are you doing in Hades? Well youâre blasting through monsters in whatâs essentially a linear Dungeon. But the gameplay emphasis is on the joy of actually blasting through those monsters with your abilities, being powerful, being in control, and having a general feeling of excelling at what youâre doing.
Itâs never a slog, itâs never a piano lesson where you have to follow a manuscript, and it never feels like youâre only adequate. And if you fail thereâs no punishment imposed, itâs easy to go again and get back to where you were and continue blasting.
Even as you go up in difficulties in Hades youâve also become more powerful yourself, so you get to blast even harder against even more monsters, which ultimately feels like double the fun.
Itâs not like WoW where you go up in difficulty and all the monsters get more health and do more damage, so the gameplay turns into more of a slog and youâre really just grinding away and feeling less powerful and less awesome. Thereâs no sense of your character or your gameplay evolving as you step up the ladder, so to speak.
This old MMORPG design where players sit stone-faced in front of their PCs and concentrate hard to press 40 different buttons in the correct order whilst coordinating with 4 other players to execute cooldowns and crowd-control at precisely the right moment in order to defeat a trash pack consisting of 5 kobolds, is just not the future of gaming. That holds zero appeal outside of that small core audience consisting of players who are veterans of the genre and completely indoctrinated to the gameplay.
For gamers in general there is zero appeal for such gameplay design. Zero. If you look around in the gaming landscape, then most games really just consist of characters running around with giant swords and hacking away at monsters with glee and agility and a sense of power and careless fun.
There are no games â none â that try to emulate WoWâs design of a dungeon-crawl that is so bogged down by difficulty, challenge, and complexity. None. Or wellâŚMaybe Microsoftâs Flight Simulator is a game that kind of goes for the same gameplay design as Blizzard does with WoW, but Iâm not sure thatâs the game WoW wants to be compared to for its design complexity. But that is probably the closest comparison there is.
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This is a pretty weird statement, when talking about M+âŚisnât it? M2 is pretty much that: you can make endless mistakes and still time it. M7 or higher is much more unforgiving.
So you donât want the game to be like that (as what you requested already exists), you want the best rewards for an effort where you can scratch your nose for three seconds. I mean, itâs a fair reasoningâŚbut some other players find much more relief, satisfaction, whatever we call it, from overcoming a challenge.
Doing LFR/TW/Heroic content is not seen as rewarding by many, for good reason. It offers a negative challenge. All you need to do is keep your eyes open, which can be problematic at times, surely.
The whole point of dying to mechanics is most likely to actually relief some pressure from the healers. Canât heal a dead playerâŚso itâs no longer a healer mechanic:)
I donât think youâre some weird anomaly, I actually think Jito nailed it. My guess is a whole lot of people would have a whole lot more fun if the game was designed along these lines. From my impressions Iâd say seasons that sort of match it are very popular, and seasons that donât are usually experienced as unfun. To me it makes perfect sense why.
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But M+ was already infinitely scaling. People who just play for the challenge can do 15s.
I suspect that the bulk of the player base just wants to get a myth set and âfeelâ strong. 10s donât need to be as punishing as they are, and 1-a-week myth will probably take 16-20 weeks to actually gear a character. I would like 10s to be aimed more at the serious but social adult player, i.e. people whoâve been at work all day and want to chill and unwind.
Yeah, but it turns out to be utterly demoralising. Fair enough to experiment, but time to declare failure!
A lot of people want DF season 3 back. It was the one that everyone says was really easy.
But⌠who cares if it was âeasyâ? Thereâs no definitive correct difficulty, the only measure should be player enjoyment, and Blizz should actually think about listening to the feedback and tuning things appropriately.
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Letâs not go black-or-white-and-nothing-in-between here. Yeah, the ones who only do M+ for the challenge can go further up. But for others, each challenge is always seen within the context of the rewards which are obtainable from the challenge, or unlocked by the challenge.
Having a very easy time and still getting the best gearâŚitâs not going to be a very satisfactory experience either.
And very nice that the bulk of the players just wants to feel strong. They also donât understand the concept of game design, and all the psychological aspects related to it. They only know and see how it affects them personally.
The player knows a lot, but they do not know what the optimal design is, nor reward structure for content.
I personally consider it a success and an improvement.
Bottom line is clear from even your comment: the problem isnât M+âŚthe problem is that people do M+ for the wrong reason. Not to overcome a challenge, but just to get the best gear. They donât even like itâŚclearly.
So the solution isnât to nerf M+, but to improve the gearing structure for the general social âscratching their nose for three secondsâ-group.
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I just cba with the routes and percentages and weird skips in M+ a tank is expected to know.
I dont mind mechanics. In a linear dungeon where you just have to defeat all mobs I probably would go tank sometimes.
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I think they should nerf content before buffing players.
If its just buffing players ok nice and all but I still feel no warmth towards m+ so long as thereâs trash packs that are more dangerous then bosses
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