Anduin in stormwind keep?

Lore Story
21

That’s what I expect.
If they didn’t, I wouldn’t doubt the timing especuially, I would doubt the reliability of the narrator. Referring to the blighting of South Shore, while adding that Calia didn’t know who the Forsaken who lived in Tarrens Mill for years were is too stupid even for Blizzard. Calia’s mind not being all there and manipulated is an option, though.

But since randomly inserting an attack on South Shore, because it is one of the few places close to Lordaeron that you can see ingame, fits perfectly within Blizzard’s writing modes… I really don’t doubt that it is as simple as it seems.

Where do you get that from? I assumed she learned from him.

22

Sorry, I should make a separate post instead of editing the old one.

Where do you get that from?

That one is a summary from her wowpedia article. Maybe I should check the book though.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Calia_Menethil

gl hf

23

Yes, I get where you get a summary, but I don’t see where you read that she was a priest before meeting Faol. She wasn’t one during the Scourge invasion, she was one in Legion. And my assumption was that in between she learned from Faol, since she probably found him relatively shortly after the Forsaken became a thing.

24

I do not think I said she was a priest before Alonsus found her. I said that Alonsus was teaching her as a priest. From Alonsus she learned that not all undead are the scourge. So, if both events happen after the same point in time (meeting with Faol), then in my mind they could be somewhat tied together: after a certain point in time she learned from the same person 2 things, being a priest, and finding out that the forsaken are not the scourge.

She found him after she ran from Southshore

“You had to have had a terrifying experience with the undead,” he [Anduin] said
quietly. “How is it that you are so close with the archbishop?”

Calia relaxed and smiled at her old friend. “He helped save me,” she said. “I remembered him, you see. And in the midst of all that horror, when I was constantly fleeing so many I loved whose minds and wills had been stolen from them…to see the face of someone who was still who he had been—”

gl hf

25

Thus far I’ll just agree, since I don’t understand where this would be going.

Yes. And I am quite sure she ran from Southshore during the Scourge Invasion, like we discussed.

The Forsaken Blight didn’t create mindless undead in Southshore. It just melted people, if you don’t think she meant acid blobs. Another thing that doesn’t fit, if you were to assume it wasn’t during the Scourge invasion.

26

Well, to me those 2 things are equally possible. Either it was an attack of the forsaken, since she supposedly knew no difference, or there will be retroactively added a devastating attack on Southshore, since so far the story sources claim that it was a calm and safe place and retain no traces of such invasion. Or she never lived in Southshore.

She continued. “No one recognized me. Everyone assumed I was dead. We were happy for a time. And then came the blight. We ran. I wasn’t about to leave my family again, but in the crowd we were separated. I stood in the middle of the street, screaming for them. Someone took pity on me, pulling me onto his horse and galloping past the limits of the town barely in time".

“There was a cluster of refugees in the forest. So many of us waited, desperate for word of our loved ones. Sometimes prayers were answered, and there were reunions that were…” Calia bit her lip. “I prayed that my family, too, would be spared. But…” Her voice trailed off. “I never saw them again.”

And then, with a realization that stopped his breathing with shock, Anduin understood why Calia had decided to befriend the Forsaken. Why, instead of seeing them as the destroyers of her city, her way of life, and all her family, she had chosen to identify with them.

So far all I can say is that:

  • she did not know the difference between the scourge and other kinds of undead
  • all the time data we have is “some time”

That’s about it. Where the devs want to take the story - I don’t know. Could go either way.

gl hf

27

Just to add the actual quote that she saw them (the scourge and the forsaken) as the same thing:

“Yes,” she said. “It wasn’t until I met the archbishop that I started to understand that the Forsaken weren’t monsters. They were just…us. The same people you and I would be if we had been killed and given a different sort of life.”

gl hf

28

Sure, and she might just have lied to Anduin for the lulz. It’s just far from the easiest explanation, and doesn’t make much narrative sense. All we have to assume for her story to make sense is that the Scourge’s blight reached Southshore at some point. I find that a much, much smaller ask than to assume that she lived next to Tarrens Mill for years without learning that not all undead were mindless.

29

Or she might be so far in the “lawful stupid” category that she did not know that she lived not in the Southshore. Some reactions I saw from Nobbel make her seem not too bright-minded. For example:

Distances in the game are way shorted though. It takes approximately four days to sail from Zandalar to Stormwind on a Zandalari vessel [per Shadows Rising].

And who knows when exactly the forsaken took that place. For example, there is cyndicate and ogres occupying Alterac. I do not know if the place was take from the humans of the alliance, or from those groups, hostile to it. If it’s the 2nd case, regulat citizens might not ever try to visit the place.

gl hf

30

Sadly, they haven’t been in Golden’s work for some time. And the Forsaken were ruling great parts of Lordaeron at that point, not just Tarren’s Mill. I really find it baffling that you actually see it as a viable possibility that she hadn’t heart about them, while essentially living on their borders.

But okay, if you find that believable… I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I just don’t understand you on that at all.

Even if they just took it in Vanilla, year 24, that’s still years until Southshore’s destruction.

31

All the forsaken truly controlled were Tirisfal and Silverpine with some spots here and there. Plaguelands are still not fully cleared from the mess of old days.

You might ask a better question, how could of all places, citizens of Theramore not have any diplomatic interaction with the horde, as a place ruled by Jaina after the 3rd war. And not spread the info about the forsaken. Yet it happened somehow.

To explain my thought process:

  1. I was told on us forum that Southshore was ravaged by the scourge.
  2. I know that there were present undead and some kind of blight, which narrows it to either scourge or the forsaken with no feral ghouls or something like that.
  3. I do quests on both sides in Classic.
  4. I check wowpedia article.
  5. I see that such event does not exist in the time frame from Warcraft 3 till Classic.
  6. I conclude that “some time” could be any time and both are possible.

I mean that I do not know a source that would allow me somehow tie Tarren Mill to it being taken by the forsaken from the alliance or from forces present in Alterac.

Sometimes that is the best way. Cheers!

gl hf

32

…Yes. Which is quite a large part.

It did, though. Cycle of Hatred, and the Peace Talks during the comics were supposedly a thing. Heck, Thrall came to Jaina before Theramore happened. There were diplomatic interactions. They just failed.

I don’t know what you’re referring to, here.

Doesn’t help me understand the relevant parts, but thanks for the attempt.

…okay, then I just don’t understand that point’s relevance to any argument here. Is the idea that the Forsaken lived there in secret? Considering the vanilla quests there, I very much doubt that.

33

I didn’t see any indication in the game, so to me Theramore and territories around being strictly anti-horde is an oddity.

Largely negative opinion of the regular alliance citizens when it comes to the forsaken. IMO the Gathering is odd to be the first meeting of the kind, because in Warcraft 3 Jaina is the leader of Lordaeron survivors, so it would be logical if those who lived in Theramore and were from Lordaeron could try to learn about destiny of their families, friends, etc., who could be among the forsaken. Especially with such pro-peace leader.

You’re welcome.

TL;DR is that with the current story such attack never existed before the Cata events. That’s about it. Can be retconned

It wasn’t a secret. It just that for the regular citizen undead was more or less the same as the scourge. And given how much attention was given to the world, it was all stuck in year 24 till Cata, just like currently old continents are stuck in 28, even though BfA is 33. It just that undead settled there. And then “time was frozen”. All the info about Southshore and the region that I know of is coming either from Before the Storm, or Classic quests. And that’s more or less about it.

I mean, maybe it’s hard to believe that the average citizen could see all undead as the same. But it’s not like there is much to tell about it since the story forgets about places for who knows how long.

Examples from Before the Storm:

“It’s an admirable trait. Especially in a ruler. But a ruler must be careful that he’s not played for a fool. I know you met and respected Thrall. And I know you consider Baine a friend, and he has acted with honor. Even your father negotiated with Lor’themar Theron and held Vol’jin in high esteem. But the Forsaken are…different. They don’t feel things like we do anymore. They’re… abominations.”

Anduin’s voice was mild. “A current leader of the Conclave is Archbishop Faol.”

Genn swore and sprang to his feet. Silverware clattered to the floor. “Impossible!” His face had flushed, and a vein stood out on his neck. “That’s worse than an abomination. That’s blasphemy! How can you tolerate this, Anduin? Doesn’t it sicken you?”

Is the reaction of far more knowledgeabe person than a regular citizen.

Rogers, of course, was no surprise. “Have you been to Southshore recently?” she snapped rhetorically. “The very creature you’re negotiating with deliberately unleashed the blight against an Alliance town! I had friends—family—there. Now there’s only Forsaken.”

“The Forsaken are not the Scourge,” Anduin reminded her. “Some of them retain a sense of who they were, and they miss their living relatives.”

“I can’t believe them capable of such things,” Catherine retorted.

Oh, and by the way, maybe you can remember that Calia Menethil was a character during Legion? Guess what, the event of Before the Storm, that between BfA and Legion, suggest that Anduin did not know that she was alive. With all the spies and such.

So, who knows where will it all go. You might be right. Time will tell.

gl hf

34

That doesn’t mean they’re uninformed or misinformed. The Forsaken began their rule over Lordaeron by killing Garithos and his troops. They didn’t stop killing people at any point after. And “they started it!” is seldom a convincing argument to make someone trust you.
That the church would have called them abominations at that point wouldn’t have helped any, either.

So I find it perfectly reasonable to assume that even most people who knew all or most about them would despise them. I, as a player, kinda do. And if they didn’t get the full info, but versions that went through the rumr mill a few times, I doubt it would get better.

…which is already something that doesn’t work with mindlessness. If she just didn’t see any moral difference, that’s one thing. But she explicitly said mindless.

Yup. He thinks he knows the difference. He is very, very aware that Sylvanas isn’t mindless. He just thinks they are all abominations anyways and deserve to die, based on their “nature”, and their behaviour. That’s what I’d expect. Not knowing on the other hand makes no sense.

Yes. She was with Faol doing “secret war” stuff. And no one knew Faol was undead, either. And since that was in Lordaeron, I would’t expect Anduin to know before Sylvanas anyways.

35

I am not focusing on “mindless”. Scourge under some control was perfectly capable of doing rather complicated maneuveres. Could be perseived as something similar, I don’t know the intensions of the dev team.

I do not think all of the Legion class stories were a big secret. Velen is not the only alliance character there, but somehow it still was a secret for the priest-king. To me it is odd. That’s about it.

gl hf

36

Ah, I think I got what you mean. So, when it comes to the summaries of wowpedia, I can’t tell how they are formed. Usually they give a rather good overview of things. When it comes to the book, it uses the word “mindless” 7 times, none of them comes from Calia.

These are from Anduin:

Chapter 4

Anduin Wrynn reminded her [Ol’ Emma] so much of her own bright boys. Three of them there had been: Little Jem, named for his father; Jack, named for his uncle John; and Jake. They, too, had died in a war, just like her sister, Janice. Except that war was worse than the one that had just ended, in a way. Her sons had perished because of Arthas Menethil and his war on the living. They’d been warriors of Lordaeron, given places of honor as King Terenas’s guards. They’d fallen along with their king and their kingdom.

But no one honored their names with a formal ceremony. No one thought of them as war heroes. They’d been turned into mindless undead monstrosities. They were still in that brutally cruel state, were dead, or had become one of the Banshee Queen’s Forsaken.

[edit: I suppose that part after is also useful, although for another context]
Whatever her beautiful sons’ final fate, they were lost to her, and the living world of humans spoke of such horrors only in whispers.

Chapter 11

Seeing them there, in that place of Light…it gave me hope, Genn. The Forsaken aren’t mindless Scourge. They’re people. They have free will. And yes, some of them have been changed for the worse. Those have moved on in their new existence with hate and fear. But not all of them.

Chapter 15

“I had seen Forsaken before now,” he said. “And I was aware that they — you [Alonsus Faol] — were not mindless, raving Scourge. I also never thought you were inherently evil.”

Chapter 33

He watched Calia, who had hidden in a ditch for two days while enraged mindless creatures swarmed and searched above her, move about the crowd, speaking to small groups and blessing them.

Chapter 35

Calia Menethil was dead, but she lived. She was no mindless undead, but she was not Forsaken, either. She had been raised by a human and a Forsaken both using the power of the Light, bathed in the radiance of a naaru.

Alonsus Faol chapter 8

Faol sighed. “I have done and been those things you have cited, true. I have also been a mindless minion of the Scourge.”

Vellcinda Benton aka Elsie chapter 19

She had no memory of her time as a mindless creature, and that was a good thing.

So, while it’s true that some scourge was mindless and they could be perceived as such, there is no mention of that thing from Calia. Just that until she met Alonsus all undead seemed to be the same thing. What are the dev intentions in all of that - I am not aware.

gl hf

37

Haha, that’s funny. I didn’t know that video but the expression on Nobbel’s face there when Calia says she doesn’t blame Anduin must have been the same as my own when I first listened to that dialogue :rofl:

To the topic itself, I think it’s like Wimbert said, Golden just invented a Scourge invasion of Southshore for BtS when there never was one mentioned anywhere, and the town has always been described as thriving and a safe haven. ( The closest I found was Dar’khan Drathir’s attack on Tarren Mill in order to kidnap Anveena in the Dragon Hunt comics, but he was defeated then and there and never went to Southshore )

So yeah, it’s basically a retcon.

However, I find it very unlikely that Calia could have spoken about the Forsaken attack in Cataclysm, because afaik all the survivors fled to Fenris Keep and became Worgen, and the others were melted with the blight. ( Although, maybe some were raised. Darla Harris, the former gryphon master is now the Forsaken bat handler in the ruins of Southshore. )

And even if Calia may not be the brightest crayon in the box, she should know the difference between a Scourge and a Forsaken attack. But I admit the wording “and then came the blight” is confusing.

38

I do not deny that. Such thing might be retroactively added into the story at some point.

I suppose most ended up there.

When it comes to Calia Menethil, she was not with the rest. In fact, I don’t even remember if the book mentions the rest. So, it seems to be a flexible part as well.

The book rather straightforwardly states that she learned about the difference between the 2 after she encountered Alonsus.

I am not the right person to ask how it supposed to work. Apparently is does. I can only assume from a rare few mentions of regular humar reactions that they consider undead so warped and their actions so awful that there is no real difference anyway.

Just for clarity. I do not mean that it’s literally the only possibility that it was the Cata story. Just that there are options. It would be nice if the devs would be more clear with that. Eventually I hope we’ll get more details.

gl hf

39

It doesn’t even have to be a Scourge invasion. “The plague is in town, some have been turned to undead” is really enough to explain the chaos of her flight.

Well, in that case we can inerpret the remark to mean nothing for timing at all, I guess. “I though the Forsaken were all evil until I met Faol” makes sense at any point in time, you’re right on that part. I still don’t think it fits the narrative Golden presented that she lived happily with her baby for more than 5 years there, though.

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40

She was with the others when they were hiding in the forest. After that, no idea, the book tells us nothing more.

Figuratively speaking, sure, but literally?

Agreed. Wouldn’t that be a good “Ask the devs” question? If that’s even still a thing.

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