if you did then you should also remember the shouting on the forums for the herocis being over tuned.
given how that worked out then we can also see they tried with the making mobs stronger and it did not work.
People were just bad. We heard they were âhardâ and thought âOh, damn, we might actually have to CCâ, then we did a few and was like â⌠Really, this is what people consider hard?â and then stopped CCing and just steamrolled through them. They were, in fact, faceroll.
That achievment in tolâvir on last boss, we did that with all 5 of the group, at the same time. Only later did we learn youâre supposed to do it one by one instead of the whole group and it was still easy with all 5 of the group getting the debuff.
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they where never hard true(in a group with friends), they where not faceroll in the start of the expantion, they where not impossible no but if you where not with a group of people that communicated then they where pretty anoing to deal with.
at least from a healers point of view.
ofc there are also the steam rolling from the end of wrath that really took people by surprise back then.
but it is exactly what happened, they made it so you could not pull all the room at a time without dieing and the forums where whinning aobut it like no tomorrow so going that way is tried and tested and did not work.
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The AoE cap is an answer to the ever growing server strains happening.
Nothing to do with the actual gameplay.
Straining the servers in 5 man content?
Maybe invest in new servers instead of ruining the game lol
Wasnât active on the forums back thenâŚ
How is that any different from now then?
With a hardcap on AoE thereâs also the possibility youâll die if you pull the entire room, as it will take so long to kill everything that the healer might oom before youâre done, ending in a wipe.
Wonât that result in the exact same whining?
no but that might be because I explained it wrong, in the end of wrath you could pull most of a room or 2 and aoe them down, when cata started people did not try to pull a whole room they pulled it pack from pack(at least after 1-2 wipes with more pulls) and still struggled with the dungeons, but I assumed you knew this part given you said you played during cata, so the difference is that with not making the trash/mobs needing to hard CC, interrupt and stun, basically having great communication but still lower the amount getting pulled, would be better if it is done by lower aoe cap in my opinion, based on how much of a poop show start of cata was.
and talking about how a meteor hitting every mob but is it not unrealistic of every mob stacking on top of each other, so we also need mob collision effect then you would still only hit x amount of mobs with a meteor, so that is not working then there is blizzard, how many shards are there in the blizzard, how do they fall and how much control do you have with the shards?
simply put much of it is in there because of limitations with hardware or software, now with the numbers getting hit, then you learn to work around it people in GW2 did and they have a limit of 5 on each ability(other then siege engines with 50 if memory serves me right), all it does is slow you down in aoeing stuff down and in dungeons that would most likely mean doing mechanics on trash to if you pull more then 5 or 8
Itâs ten years ago, in addition to me not having much problems with dungeons in Cata as I was doing almost every dungeon with guildmates.
We never had much trouble with the Cata dungeons if I remember correctly.
Also, I was never on the forum back then, so even if the forums were burning with whining threads I wouldnât register it.
Played since 2005, though I was gone for MoP and WoD due to studies. And I didnât start using the forums until late in Legion I think.
Well, opinions are like butts, theyâre split. I find it more âstrangeâ that mobs wonât register getting a meteor dropped on their head, than the mobs standing slightly inside each other.
Iâm glad I donât main a mage (or other AoE heavy class), because Iâd find it very frustrating to drop a giant burning ball on top of a cluster of mobs and see the majority of them not register it.
My main is a rogue and I guess it makes sense I wouldnât be able to throw an infinite number of daggers at once.
If weâre speaking âthematicsâ only, and theyâre going to cap it as low as 5, they might as well remove AoE in its current form and replace it all with Cleave abilities.
No giant explosion that inexplicably hits just a few mobs, but rather small one that hits the main target and the 4 dudes closest to him.
No raining shower of ice but rather a shard that hits one target and splinters to the 4 closest ones.
Whatâs the point of having a giant explosion if it only hits a few mobs anyway?
Then it would be better to deal full damage to each mob up to a certain number, and then everyone above that number splits a set amount of damage. That would also make it less of a pain in the rear to do old content for achievements or transmog runs, as you wouldnât have to cast 37 AoEâs in order to kill all the trash between bosses.
But as Iâve already said, Iâd rather see other âfixesâ than hardcapping AoE at 5.
At 5 whatâs even the point? Might as well be a Cleave.
ehm⌠so the AoE cap should have solved it is what youâre actually saying here 
Sure they can handle it, when they overgear it ⌠But try and pull 4-5 Tidesage Spiritualists things in start of shrine, most pugs will wipe then, unless they overgear it so much they can melt it down before the heals go off.
Or pull multiple packs in ML without overgearing it, gl, need to keep the assasins stunned and interrupt the vendors or they will annihilate the group. Sure, in the weekly 15 where everyone has 475 loot, mechanics can be ignored which means pugs can do them easy enough. But that is by overgearing the content.
They can learn, implying youâve already learned it.
Btw, 15 Years of wow shows, no, they really canât learn⌠well, thatâs wrong, they really dont want to learn.
So what you suggestion, is that the damage spreads out, so you get to a point, where it is just more efficient to use ST spell, thereby giving AoE a softcap ⌠-.-â
And they will have different strengths, the AoE cap isnât just 5 targetâs for everyone itâs spread out so itâs 5-8 targets, if anything, this change will give more classes a chance to shine compared to the current style.
Some classes will be more cleave, dot classes will start having a place, since they can spread damage around to more targets, but will have ramp up time ect.
The only thing youâve said that makes any kind of sense.
Big pulls arenât gonna disapear in SL, but the skill cap needed to pull it off is gonna be way bigger.
Weâre still gonna use CC and interrupts on CD come SL as we are now. (Unless you overgear the content to such a degree the casts dont matter)
EDIT: Have you considered that your perception of the difficulty ect. is very skewed considering youâre running +2-+5 with a ret pala that is similar geared as my main? 476 ilvl ?
In terms of ilvl (i dont know ret pala that well, so not sure how optimized the gear is/was) he should be able to do 20âs no problem⌠And you wonder why your +5 is pull everything and AoE, nothing has mechanics?
Nope⌠Because just reducing the cap will still make mindless blasting the best strategy, just that youâre using it on smaller groups.
Exactly⌠But thereâs too few of those mobs like the Tidesage Spiritualists in all the dungeons in my opinion.
Most of them donât have to be interrupted unless youâre talking high keys.
Me learning a kill order and how to use the tools given to me doesnât mean Iâm in the top 8%.
We did dungeons just fine back in vanilla, and we used CCâs and kill orders all the time.
Iâm not saying vanilla is perfect, because gods know it wasnât. But the 5 man dungeons were more fun. Tactically speaking.
Preferably I donât want them to touch the cap.
But âsoftcappingâ it like that is better than hardcapping it.
Because at least that doesnât negatively impact transmog runs in old content.
So itâs 1 point better than a hardcap in my opinion.
Harcapping it at 5 makes it pointless with AoE, might as well remove all big AoEâs and replace them with cleaves from a main target.
No meteor that hits a large area and only touches a few mobs, but rather a âliving bombâ kind of spell that bursts the nearest 4 to the target. That kind of thing.
Makes more sense.
You havenât exactly made much sense to me either.
But since youâre insisting on keeping this going Iâll bite.
Itâs been a day since the last reply after all.
No point with even having AoE spells then if large pulls wonât disappear.
Give everyone cleaves instead if one wants to render AoE pointless next to cleaves.
This just goes to show youâre just skimming everything I read because youâre in too much of a hurry to type out your own reply. Because youâre feeling rather confident that your opinion is a fact.
It has nothing to do with what keys Iâve done and not.
I donât like mythic+ at all, because 9 times out of 10 Iâve done it with pugs itâs complete, ragefueled morons that start arguing with each other the instant itâs a wipe or anything doesnât go according to plan.
That is because of its design. The timer stressing people. The owner of the key absolutely exploding if it isnât upgraded etc.
So I stay far away from that content. Iâve already said as much further up.
The only times Iâve done it is because that pala youâre pointing at is a friend that was helping me and my wife gear up quicker for raiding that he wanted us to join.
I want the dungeons designed so large pulls isnât the correct way unless youâre overgeared.
I played BfA since launch and I think I used my sap maybe once or twice during a heroic run, and thatâs when everyone was geared for heroic.
I agree, and calling it AOE is wrong now seeing as itâs NOT an area of effect but a multi target, up to a maximum of whatever, effect (MTUTAMOWE ?)
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Ok that made me chuckle a bit. 
But it is not midless blasting unless you outgear it, if you just do mindless blasting in the keys where everyone has the apropiate gear level you will wipe!
They have these kind of mobs in every dungeon. but you dont notice them because the few keys you do is with people that overgear the content so much they can solo it!
Sure what ever, but doesnât change that the majority of players are unable to get the 15 meta achivement because itâs to hard. And you want to make it even harder for the majority of players. yet you accused me of only catering to the top players?
Then play classic if you think theyâre more fun and tactical.
But they dont want to make it pointless to AoE, they dont want it to be the answer to every problem as it is right now, this is an attempt to bring it in line where the correct answer sometimes is pull smaller or use Sap/sheep ect.
It has everything to do with what mythic+ you have done, your opinion is shaped by your experience, and that experience is having a carry in really low keys where the person doing the carry can more than likely solo the keys. And from that you form your opinion that current trash mobs arenât dangerous and have no mechanics and you use this âexperienceâ to try and argue why a change is good or bad in mythic+
You argue that mobs should be harder so you need to use stuns/CC/interrupts and thereby preventing you from doing the mass pulls. As someone who actually does M+, this will not work, because the trash mobs are already like that. They have tried littering dungeons with mini bosses, and itâs still not preventing us from doing the mass pulls.
How many times must I say that I want the dungeons themselves more tactical?
Yes, I know you need to use CC, stuns etc in high enough keys.
My point is that in Normal, Heroic Mythic0 thatâs extremely rarely the case.
And if they designed the dungeons from the get-go like this, they can still have something called mythic+, they just wouldnât need to tune the numbers up as much to make it challenging. If itâs already a bit challenging to begin with.
Ah, because if I donât agree with everything Blizzard does I can just get the **** out of here right?
I donât even deserve to be here.
Then Iâd argue to tune AoE instead. Not wingclip it. Or make tanks less immortal.
Or look at whatever Azerite powers and corruptions we have. i.e. borrowed power.
Again I get the feeling youâre barely reading what I say.
It has nothing to do with what keys Iâve done or not, because I want that slower tactical gameplay in everything from Normal to Heroic to Mythic0.
Of course mobs are more dangerous in high keys where they are given six quadrillion points of HP, and affixes make them explode when they die or give everyone dots!
But what does that have to do with me finding dungeons in general boring because thereâs almost zero tactics.
Back when no one was overgeared for Normal, Heroic or Mythic0 dungeons it was still just run through spam spells, only a handful of mobs needed your attention.
And if they design it like this from the ground up, they wouldnât need to give mobs in M+ a ridiculous amount of stats and punishing affixes for a challenge to appear.
In addition, the normal/hc/m0 dungeons would be more fun in my opinion.
And Iâd argue the problem is just as much halfway immortal tanks that can hold aggro on six thousand mobs and stay alive, as it is AoE being too powerful.
Edit: In addition to this, I have friends who do m+ who say they are doing it 1-2 packs at a time, because if they mass-pull they die.
And you say itâs necessary to use CC, stuns, etc.
Yet you also claim that itâs just mass-pulling like crazy and AoEing everything down?
And how many times must i say this is only the case if you overgear it.
No, but by saying i want classic styled dungeon, then classic might be for you.
Normal and HC maybe, M0 wasnât like that at the start, unless youâre a way better player than me and those i played with. Normal and HC are there to learn the layout of the dungeon and get a genral idea about what is happening, they are meant to be beat by minimal effort, blizzard have been quite open about this over the years.
And then weâd have another cata sitiuation, make the dungeons to hard from the get go and barely any will do them, we saw this in cata. Starting low and gradually making it harder letâs players find the difficulty level they can handle.
You saying make it harder baseline and less increase in difficulty is the same as someone saying, make LFR HC level difficulty, and have smaller increases up to mythic.
All this will do is fewer people will see the content. 15 years of wow have shown this.
The majority of players canât CC/interrupt as needed in dungeons now, nor do they know how their class works, making it mandatory for any gear level from +0 will just make them not do the dungeons, and guess what, those people are the majority of the playerbase.
EDIT
Itâs funny, you accused me of catering to the top % of players, yet youâre the one advocating a system where the base dungeons become way harder ^^ which will exclude those not in the top %
Then whatâs the problem if mass-pulling only happens when you overgear it?
Mass pulling always happen if you overgear content.
Vanilla did a lot of things wrong, understandable as Acti-Blizz hadnât made an MMO before.
But what they did right was the dungeons, which were challenging and fun, until you overgeared it at least.
For m0 it depended on the dungeon.
Shrine wasnât like that, but many of the others were.
And I consider myself an average player, as are most of those I play with.
Exception being that retri paladin you pointed to earlier who seems very much into min-maxing his character to a certain degree.
And I consider it a mistake to make the lowest difficulties âminimal effortâ.
If you can just run through it, you learn nothing.
Until you start doing keys and itâs suddenly extremely difficult for some.
The learning curve needs to be less steep in my opinion, hence make it more challenging in the earlier dungeons. Which shouldnât be a problem, because without a timer you have no incentive to rush through it.
If Cata was too hard (which in my opinion it wasnât), then make it somewhere between the ârun through dungeonsâ we have now and the Cata dungeons.
Completely different scenarios.
Raids have always had more tactics involved, and LFRâs greatest weakness is that thereâs barely any communication, which leads to no coordination.
Dungeons donât have the same degree of tactics, but they could have more of it.
I was 15 when I first did a dungeon in vanilla, and we were perfectly capable of learning kill orders and how to use CC.
I argue that the reason people donât know this is because theyâve never been put in a situation where they have to learn it.
Until they enter keys and suddenly they need to learn everything at once.
If your car drove itself anywhere you wanted when you sat down in it, youâd never learn how to drive.
The way I see it, youâre sitting on your high horse calling the majority of the playerbase too stupid to learn.
Server performance?
That may very well be it.
As has been said, in a coordinated group, that is always the answer even when you dont overgear it. See an important thing there, coordinated. I.E a group that can call out interrupts/Stuns/CC so they dont overlap.
In low keys, people dont do interrupts, the average players doesnât use it. Same with stuns and CC. Which is why in lower keys it is lethal to do the big pulls unless you have someone to carry you.
This change will make bigger pulls way more dangerous as you canât kill them as fast. Youâll need to be better at your class on how you spread your damage.
This could lower the differance between the Rank 1 players and the Average joe, in terms of key level differance.
This can end up either being good or bad.
1 way it can go is that visually the key differance isnât so big, so therefor more people will put in the effort to try and get that good. really good for the game i think.
2. way this could go, the added skill cap needed will crush peoples spirit when they try to reach that next level, and therefor quit the game, really bad for the game.
Right now i think it could go either way.
And only a small percentage of the playerbase took part in those dungeons.
This was why HCâs was watered down in Wrath and LFG was introduced.
Blizzard isnât a big fan of investing a lot of time into content that only very few people take part in.
Iâd argue the learning curve is not really steep right now, the problem is many people only start noticing things when they die.
Oh that mob hit me for 50% of my HP â Healer problem, he can heal it.
Oh, that mob one shot me, maybe i should do something different.
Iâm honestly curious how you would want to encourage people to learn the mechanics at a less steep angle, from my experience, mechanics arenât noticed until they one shot you, until that point itâs the healers problem.
Iâd say the current learning curve is in many ways quite good, not perfect by any means, but every few levels you notice mobs starting to one shot you, and thatâs when you learn, huh, that mechanic that mob does is actually really dangerous, but it can be avoided. The mob has been doing in since HC, but you dont start really noticing until it really smashes your face in.
Not to stupid, iâd go with have no interest in learning and even less incentive, but that is another discussion all together where i get the feeling we might agree.
Sure, you need to do smaller pulls, but I doubt it will make people think more.
Itâll be the same spam tactics just with fewer enemies on the board at any given time, in my opinion. Maybe with Cleaves being the new winner instead of AoE.
It wonât make people suddenly start using their interrupts, CCs or stuns in normal/hc/m0 or low keys.
I donât care much for my sake that AoE is limited like this. I have most classes at max, but I donât really bother gearing more than 1-3 of them. And itâs usually a tank, healer and a dps.
And my main is the rogue, and whether I personally hit everything or not with my Fan of Knives doesnât really matter. As I canât compete with heavy AoE classes in that regard anyway, itâs just to maximize my poison spread and because at a certain number of enemies it does more damage than Mutilate. But itâs never amazing, just decent.
What Iâm also worried about is that the AoE heavy classes like mage is going to feel very unsatisfying to play.
Whatâs the point of playing a class like mage if your AoE spells hit like wet farts?
Everything isnât about the numbers, how your class feels to play is important as well.
And it will be extremely unsatisfying to drop a meteor on top of a pack of mobs and only 5 out of 20 even registering the hit.
I seem to remember quite a few people did dungeons, everyone I played with back then, friends as well as strangers did dungeons all the time while leveling.
The raiding was a bit more exclusive, as most guilds recruited their raid team and then the ones who didnât have the gear or connections to get an invite were often left outside of it.
As Iâve said, more punishing normal/hc/m0.
Not to the degree where it one-shots you, but where you feel it.
I donât agree that people donât react unless they die, because if you get smacked in the face for 85% of your HP and your screen flashes red youâre going to notice something is wrong.
Even 50% should make most people go âwhoa, what was that?â
Maybe so.
Maybe, just maybe, this limitation (5 targets cap) will not be noticed in most cases. Imagine pulling 10 mobs and starting AOE. Do you think that the same 5 mobs will get hit every tick of your AOE? I guess not. Probably the only difference will be is that instead of seeing 10 numbers with 10k damage, you will see 5 numbers with 20k damage, which will popup every tick of your AOE from different mobs. And the AOE debuff effect will not disappear from the mob that was hit previous tick, so if your AOE slows, it will slow all 10 mobs eventually and keep them so as long as they get debuff refresh (AOE tick).