+10000000
Blizzard started with a lacking UI and the addons filled the void that was there.
Then Blizzard started an arms race vs the addons by increasing the complexity of the game.
And we have reached this pseudo-job nonsense we have now.
Meanwhile in FF14 you can get banned if you have something that measures someone’s dps and you criticize someone for their own performance.
I don’t see the need to check peoples parses. I do however check what the highest key they have done is of the dungeon I’m making a group for.
Currently gearing an alt and had a 405ilvl tank with 0 rating reply to a +11. That’s an instant decline.
RE your example - I am fine with removing key depletion. I think that especially on lower end it would help a lot of casuals to enjoy more of the cake.
Still I don’t think it would change anything with mechanisms to sort out players based on whatever criteria.
Well, they figured it out in FFXIV as well so the example stands only as cosmetic mention and a system to be overcome by more serious folks.
I would say parses make sense only in raid pugging, and only up to 80 percentile really.
Anyways, addons have been staple of WoW since beginning and it is one of the differentiators on the market, not speaking of many people who are involved in their coding etc. Most of the original possibilities reachable with addons/scripts/macros are cancelled for many years already. Like 80%.
And as for the sorting mechanisms and traditions created between players, those were here before any serious addons, they are here now, and they will be here until the end.
This is the exact issue, especially encounter design turned into an arms-race, a sort of complexity-inflation that made the situation go from “It’s convenient to have this add-on” (Like “Decursive” in the MC-days) to “Good luck understanding anything that’s going on without these 6 add-ons”
As for players looking for ways to exclude the unworthy from their groups, that’s something that has been part of the game forever, we had gearscore, “Link achi” (The “Type a full word”-achievement was apparently not a requirement), people have always seen other players as mere stepping-stones to their own progression, and that’s something Blizz can’t change, even if they ban all add-ons…
So basically “if the system doesn’t fit you just get friends” mentality which is one of main issues about this whole system and mindset.
I understand, I just heavily disagree the game should be like this.
And no, the argument “but that’s MMO’s”… look at literally any other MMO to understand that’s just not the case. WOW’s the exception, and the source is in elitism. Your response… is focused on elitism too.
Forgive me for my example of a discord. You can also join ingame blizzard communities who raid. Or a guild. My personal preference is just discord. But it isnt needed at all.
Truly, the days of friendly strangers on the net has been gone for many years. Back when such a thing was novel, talking to someone in real time in a different part of the country… a different part of the WORLD!
Now the only multiplayer things worth doing are only worth doing with friends.
Again, I don’t think this is on system. System lays down rules we all follow.
What you come across and against are other people’s decisions. And the advice with friends is just the easiest way forward and also can be quite fun. You can’t expect same cozy treatment with randoms, but that is the nature of people.
I won’t be saying any clever thoughts cause I am the same and was like this since 2004. A random pug is my run is nothing more than a performance number and macroplay resource. That however doesn’t change that I treat others politely no matter what because that is of you, not of other people IMO.
PS fundamental politeness can be trained in-game directly, just play Blood DK (tank spec) in rated PvP. It really helped me with my marriage, job and family relations to learn how to moderate myself and not provoke people who are saying borderline illegal stuff to me.
Excuse me, but I started playing in 2008 and all this Item Score and Website Tools bs started during Cata+. Let’s not act or pretend it was around before because it wasn’t.
Either that or you lied when you started playing.
Item score was actually tied to a specific addon and not data tool like nowadays. The system evolved, naturally, for the worst but it was never good to begin with either.
The point is, behing so heavily reliant on external tools shows the game fails on delivering the essential. And it’s relying on the work of external blizzard-people to keep the games running. It’s awful for them, for the player and for the game experience.
You also shouldn’t defend a flawed system, that always has been, just because “it was always done this way”. So did a lot of bad things in history and it’s not because of it we’re still doing them. Or we look at them with good eyes.
If those systems are blocked, either by API or TOS, everyone wins.
At worst case scenario, it’s just a problem that got so big that Blizzard just don’t know how to fix it without creating much bigger problems, which I think it’s the case.
But it’s almost like you’re paying a sub monthly so they can fix the game as a live service ain’t it… 
Ok so first - gearscore addon was created for WOTLK because in WOTLK all gear items were given a priori hidden item score value. First mentions of a number averaging your gear were seen in, if I remeber correctly, in TitanBar addon. (I remember people trying to retro apply item value stat on TBC private servers back in day and it was mess. Warglaive had 146 while badge of justice weapon had 103 I believe).
Before this, there were systems like: Shattrath City flight master inspect, exclusive guild raids, guild cartels on isolated servers. A lot of bad politics between players I remember. I remember getting kicked out of my very first TBC karazhan raid for not having at least T5. And a lot of other stuff.
In WOTLK, especially near the end, GDKPs appeared for the first time.
I am not starting on whole PvP scene and griefing fiesta.
I dare to say that the game is at its tamest nowadays, with as little bottleneck situations as possible.
I don’t really know what you want exactly. If you remove raid logs people will ask for curve. If you remove mythic score people will ask for KSM. If you remove those people will look at your ilvl.
You can’t have hard content and expect people to just accept any random joe. Logs and score are probably a better indicator than something binary like curve/no curve, so if they take those away it’ll just be worse for people lagging behind on progression.
And also, don’t forget that contrary to the forum ideology, the most hardcore players have the best networking skills and social nets in game. You are not solving anything.
Also, we are all old coots mostly so naturally we got jobs and lifes and Linkedins etc. so it is really hard to sell us handholding and nice cozy atmosphere with gray parsing Joe, when we go after our goals. We are not here to make friends, we got husbands/wives, children and colleagues for that.
They could remove everything and ppl would still find a way to filter out who to take into the group or not. I started in TBC and even then ppl asked to inspect your gear before taking you into a raid.
Thats basic, back when servers had communities and people did meet ups, there were girls who put their shirts up all the way to Teldrassil upon request when they wanted spot/gear in the SWP.
Yeah, just by the responses it shows it’s deeply rooted in the community really is.
I’m just focusing on solo / achievement content anyway. Wanted to touch the topic to understand where we were, and definitely there wasn’t any improvement.
The system is heavily flawed but while the community is so resistant to admit it doesn’t work as it should, it’s gonna stay the way it is, so it’s only about adapting or ignoring it all together until a new expansion releases and do the content solo (me in this case for the last 4 expansions).
The thing is, raiding shouldn’t feel like a job interview, and if it does, good for those who love it but I’m out. (and most people if you look at the data on how much people raid vs are online). The WOW community really is their worst enemy. Always been, always will be. This game have so much raiding potential but it’s completely ruined by old concepts like this and just can’t keep up with the MMO genre. It’s just sad.
Raiding and M+ is content for less than 5% of the player base at current time. And we’re balancing it around those numbers. And then we ask why retention is terrible…
If it works for you, happy for you. It doesn’t for most.
The issue is not the hard content it;s the playerbase belief that some arbitrary number is a reflection of someone’s ability and therefore gives them a reason to exclude someone without giving them the chance to prove themselves.
IE… How do you get a curve if you have no guild and have never had the opportunity to do it. (This has no bearing on me I have alwasy got Curve unless I decided to skip out on the raid tier completely)
I totally remember this!! Standing outside The Eye TK being inspected by a Raid Leader before going into the raid.
The community has always found ways to exclude who they play with I just feel that the “artificial hurdles” being imposed upon to both new and seasoned players are becoming more and more.
We will soon be back to the old days of online application forms for guilds and groups with numerous questions and expectations to be met.
Bingo what you described was exactly how old WoW was. Why do you think the PvP scene erupted so much into prominence in TBC and WOTLK?
Most of the participants were people disillusioned by the PvErs. And trust me, take the sweatiest of sweats today and compare it to mega PvE hardcore people from back then. Today’s elitists would seem like babies compared to those ancient ones.
It is root of PvP people hating on PvErs today as well.
But how do you assess a random player? Just potentially sign up to an hour of wiping? If you remove every tool to assess people pugs would just be dead and most people will play in communities.