Are the Forsaken facing extinction one again?

With the loss of Brill and the Undercity, together with the loss in Darkshore and other placed, we might assume the forsaken did take quite the hit (as did all the others, really).

So now that Sylvanas is gone and so are her Valkyr, arent they back to square one? We havent really seen run of the mill necromancers raising new forsaken into unlife. Till now, for some reason never really explained, thats Valkyr only buisness. WHat do you think, in case this issue isnt simply ignored, will every loss essentially become irreplaceble one again, till they find a new solution? (Whatever that might look like)

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Not really. They still have Sepulcher, Tarren Mill, the Sludge Fields, the Bulwark and Deathknell in Tirisfal, Andorhal, and they recently claimed the ruins of Alterac. They have a lot more holdings than the Alliance in Lordaeron, even after their “oh so crushing defeat” at the Battle of Lordaeron (which is why I always make fun of how the Battle of Lordaeron is supposed to be a fist-bump moment for the Alliance… spoilers, it really isn’t).

They won’t risk extinction if they don’t nuke places left and right, maybe without Sylvanas they can learn their lesson.

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All races have means to continue as a “species”. Basically because most follow the conventional reproductive system of all living beings.

Those that don’t, have in some or other way, methods through which maintain their numbers and fill in the gaps left by both conflict and generational relief.

The Valkyr served that role for the Forsaken. Working on a viable/credible replacement that addresses said issue for the Forsaken, should be high on the priority list for the Forsaken story writers. Only second to their leadership and cultural values.

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aka murdering anyone and everyone.

Extinction? They are not a race. They are just dead humans. And hopefully there will some day be an end of people having to suffer through undeath through no choice of their own.

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undead*
I’m working on the issue tho…

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They are a playable race.

and elves

They used to have a choice, though.

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Oh, if it’s about the playable part: You will always be able to crate new Forsaken characters. Problem solved. But that’s not it, is it?

  1. No, no almost no one had the choice if they wanted to be raised. The sea-priest was quite a special case in that.
  2. “Serve or die” would usually not be called a choice.

But it is one. They could just go back to death. Or leave- and most likely be killed on their own. Most decided to stay and serve. So they made a choice.

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In the same sense that any slave is a slave by choice, yes.

Not really sure about that one. They say so in Deathknell, but you do kill those who openly refused to join the Forsaken (“Rotbrains”) without ever seeing evidence of their hostile intentions yourself… And the Ask CDev only mentioned join or die.

But still not what I was talking about. I said the Forsaken had no choice in being raised. They didn’t.

Yes. Pretty much. Bfa took everything from them. Their leaders(the only characters that actually matters), their identity(pretty much their whole culture was built around shared suffering with Sylvanas as the centerpiece that pulled them together to survive), their homelands(Lordaeron). And all credibility. And since, unlike Elves, they can’t reproduce, they are officially a dying race. They got treated the worst from all the races.

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They were going to attack Deathknell ?

Ah. That was a misunderstanding then. No, of course they had no choice to be raised as Scourge.
Which makes me wonder, if Bolvar asked his new deathknights if they want to be raised before they died? Probably not.

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Typical Alliance biased point of view.

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Which you know because your guide tells you so. That only means you aren’t told if people who don’t join are “dealt with”. The point is that there just isn’t much of an example of undead who refused to serve. There are argents, but they are hard to get to because they have new friends. There is one in a novel that asked to leave the Forsaken, after serving for some time, but that was also before the Cataclysm… So… if there is something to dispel my scepticism, I haven’t seen it, yet.

Well, the Death Knight campaign isn’t really setting any moral examples either… But at least they don’t claim to value free will above all…

Yes, yes, facts are Alliance bias, I know. :wink:

No.

By creating a plausible mean by which one of the protagonist races, is given a way to continue as staple element of the story going forth.

One that excuses their continued existence and playability with a logical explanation.

And no, that doesn’t mean they are to go murdering everyone.

The closest you had to that were a series of acts carried out when the setting facilitated a willingness to weaponize their condition…something which by the way, has happened with a large number of the current set of races (i.e.: Lightforging, Curse of Flesh,…).

Regardless of personal opinion, the undead do play a role in this magical setting. And their condition has been tweaked to be about as neutral as Life, Arcane, and the rest of cosmic forces.

In short, yes. The Forsaken have about every right to have a steady mean by which they can continue playing a part in the games story.

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Actually the Forsaken have one person that can help on that front, if he is allowed to that is. I am speaking of Helcular the Necromancer, student of Kel’thuzad himself and a person so talented he was given the title of Lich without even becoming one.

The way I can see things going forwards for the Forsaken is that Helcular can in some way be allowed to raise those that still seek to fight, still want to defend what they did in life.

It is but one way I can see the Forsaken continue their existence, alternatively Kel’thuzad might play a role himself if he ever makes his return as his phylacteri was not found when he was last defeated, some speculate he might be in Cair Darrow - Aka The Scholomance.

But you might say having the Arch Traitor of humanity return and joining the Forsaken might be a long stretch, I personaly do hope we aren’t getting any more ¨Holy¨ Forsaken.

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Finding a plausible, logical and realistic reason as to why the Forsaken numbers can still grow is basically finding a needle in a haystack. There wouldn’t nor shouldn’t be enough people willing to curse themselves with the Plague of Undeath to sustain the Forsaken population consistently.
This leaves very few choices left, mainly doing it by force or manipulation.

Ofc’ the Forsaken should still be a group because it is a core mechanic of the game which can’t be removed so the lore/story moving forward will need to find a way to make this work. But I can’t see how you can without either annoying another group of playable people, continuing to be inconsistent with their writing (which is probably the case, but still should be avoided at all costs) or just adding some mcguffin which is super lazy.

Is there even a good solution to come from this? Or is it simply taking the lesser of two evils here?

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Don’t forget Calia.

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Sorry to be the semantics guy but the choice was ‘serve the Banshee Queen, or return to the grave’. Whilst the end result is basically the same they weren’t threatening the living with death they were giving the dead the choice to remain dead. The forsaken logic for so long was that Sylvanas was the one with Valkyr and that being raised was a ‘gift’ from her - a second chance of sorts - but all who are raised are collectively Forsaken. If you don’t want to join the forsaken that’s fine but you don’t get to keep the gift. (Note: there was a marked shift in the perception of the undead state once Sylvanas acquired the Val’kyr. What was previously described as a curse was viewed more positively once they thought they could have a future as an actual ‘race’)

The issue of consent is ridiculous anyway though, particularly as we know from various quest dialogue that the newly raised are often not in their right minds and so might be more susceptible to coercion. The only moral way they could really continue to make forsaken is with like an organ donor card system which is obviously just a tad silly lol.

I think the most likely solution will come out of Shadowlands since presumably we are going to get a lot of souls out of the maw once we’re through there. I have a suspicion that the post shadowlands expansion is going to feature some previously defeated threats who’ve been able to return to Azeroth so they could use that as a way to bolster forsaken numbers in the lore.

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If we are doing semantics…no. They were giving the choice to the undead. The undeath was first forced upon them with no choice. And then they are "offered to be killed again, presumably violently. I don’t really care how the Forsaken spin it, but that’s the situation.

Was it? I remember them talking about undeath as a curse.

Well, yes. That’s why I find it stupid to think the Forsaken really care about free will anyways, no matter what the devs said about cornerstones.

Is it? I see no reason for the Forsaken to procreate at all. The Forsaken aren’t something that has to exist indefinitely. Limiting their raisings to the few who would volunteer in life to undergo the soul-twisting magics of necromancy indeed does sound like the only way to do it in a morally acceptable way to me.

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