Are the Forsaken facing extinction one again?

[Cake-sunstrider]

If we are doing semantics…no. They were giving the choice to the undead. The undeath was first forced upon them with no choice. And then they are "offered to be killed again, presumably violently. I don’t really care how the Forsaken spin it, but that’s the situation.

Oh that’s true in fairness i guess they would have to conduct a seance to ask the spirit of the person instead of raising them first and asking questions later.

Was it? I remember them talking about undeath as a curse.

Well, yes. That’s why I find it stupid to think the Forsaken really care about free will anyways, no matter what the devs said about cornerstones.

In the novel ‘Before the Storm’ being raised as Forsaken is referred to as ‘The Gift’ and it’s in part down to how Sylvanas and the Val’kyr redefined what being raised as Forsaken meant. After her suicide on ICC - and the visions she received of Garrosh using the remaining Forsaken as frontline fodder - she returned with a way for them to have a future of substance as a true ‘race’.

The curse of the Forsaken was more than not being able to taste or procreate etc, the worst part for most was the rejection from the living; being treated like monsters by their own familes and never being able to return to places that were once home.

By providing an ostensible choice to the newly raised Sylvanas had ‘solved the plight of the Forsaken’. They weren’t doomed to slowly deteriorate - a fate the Lich King 's actions inflicted upon them - rather they could form a new undead future made up of only those who wished to be a part of it. They actually had some hope for the first time since becoming Forsaken.

I guess the problem is they are viewing ‘free will’ in the context of the Forsaken vs the Scourge. Like you say, raising them even to ask the question has already violated that persons free will but the fact they are given the choice Arthas never gave them has allowed the Forsaken propaganda machine to frame it differently.

I mean I personally have always found the Forsaken questionable (despite really liking the character of Sylvanas up until Legion) so I can’t say i agree with their reasoning but i think that’s supposed to be the crux of their post cata thinking. Undeath was framed as Gift, a second chance they were offering rather than the forced graveyard conscription it looks like to other races.

Is it? I see no reason for the Forsaken to procreate at all. The Forsaken aren’t something that has to exist indefinitely. Limiting their raisings to the few who would volunteer in life to undergo the soul-twisting magics of necromancy indeed does sound like the only way to do it in a morally acceptable way to me.

I had to stop myself the whole time trying to write any of this of using this line of reasoning but - its a game. The fact the forsaken have to remain a playable race really messes things ups since the likelihood of other races allowing them to continue doing this is pretty low in my opinion. Multiple leaders made crystal clear they didnt wanted Sylvanas raising their soldiers (see Lor’themar in SoO) so the fact they’ve continued to let her raise human corpses is really bizarre.

In reality i think a mix of both horde and alliance would have done everything in their power to kill her Val’kyr once they knew what she was doing and before she could raise an army for herself.

[Wimbert-die-aldor]

In the novel ‘Before the Storm’ being raised as Forsaken is referred to as ‘The Gift’ and it’s in part down to how Sylvanas and the Val’kyr redefined what being raised as Forsaken meant.

And if you clicked at her before one of her main quites was “what joy is there in this curse?”. Sylvanas’ position shifted. A big plot point in this novel is that some Forsaken don’t really think living it worth the cost of upkeep anymore.

Also, Sylvanas is valuing undeath even over living in that novel. That was not the position of the Forsaken.

By providing an ostensible choice to the newly raised Sylvanas had ‘solved the plight of the Forsaken’. They weren’t doomed to slowly deteriorate - a fate the Lich King 's actions inflicted upon them - rather they could form a new undead future made up of only those who wished to be a part of it. They actually had some hope for the first time since becoming Forsaken.

Sylvanas’ greatest problem with the Desolate Council in the novel is that they stubbornly cling to hope, and her declared mission is to kill hope. You can’t bring Sylvanas’ motivations in the novel up without acknowledging that she herself sees it as a pitiful existence devoid of hope.

I guess the problem is they are viewing ‘free will’ in the context of the Forsaken vs the Scourge. Like you say, raising them even to ask the question has already violated that persons free will but the fact they are given the choice Arthas never gave them has allowed the Forsaken propaganda machine to frame it differently.

Well, yeah, if “free will” is just “no direct magical mind control on undead” that makes it morally pretty worthless, but might at last fit. But that’s not what the people who defend that free will always was important to the Forsaken are saying. They are saying that Sylvanas’ recent actions go against what the Forsaken stood for, that her propaganda and manipulation is the opposite of allowing free will, and that brainwashing Derek is a gross violation.

The fact the forsaken have to remain a playable race really messes things ups since the likelihood of other races allowing them to continue doing this is pretty low in my opinion.

Worgen don’t get born as Worgen, going by Ask CDev. And they don’t go around trying to spread their curse. There, precedent. Undead aren’t the only race without viable procration. It just doesn’t really come up with anyone else, since getting a child to maturity takes too long to matter in the game for most races…

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

Finding a plausible, logical and realistic reason as to why the Forsaken numbers can still grow is basically finding a needle in a haystack. There wouldn’t nor shouldn’t be enough people willing to curse themselves with the Plague of Undeath to sustain the Forsaken population consistently.

That’s definitely not true.

The setting is about a place with constant wars and conflict. And the damages derived from it would realistically create all sorts of victims with varying mindsets.
To the above, we must add the more recent moderation of what undeath implies.

Examples such as Zelling that welcome undeath as a mean to finish unresolved business, or the new Ebon Blade mindset about carrying on with the duties they had in life, are two very realistic reasonings that could feed Forsaken growth with willing souls.
And the rest…yeah, I fail to see any problem with them leeching on unwilling ones too.

Because why wouldn’t they? This is not about whitewashing them completely.
They could still plunder graveyards, or even bring it as punitive measure for punctual cases.
Much like plenty other races before them, spreading their condition shouldn’t strive to remove any/all baggage that comes with it.
And different views on said “gift” would naturally have different approaches to it.

The initial quests showcase this rather fine: 4 undead brought to life, 1 decides he rather remain dead, 1 decides to join their ranks, and 2 decide to go their own way. Only the one that chose to stand directly against the Forsaken is punished extra.

For as long as they keep a low profile, and arent open about the worst of their methods, I fail to see how that would affect their relation with both their allies or enemies (in a way that marked them above the usual frictions between races with opposing interests).

[Jankobahn-twisting-nether]

Are you aware that if Valkyrs are actually gone that Sylvanas would cease to exist?

[Augarrosh-argent-dawn]

That’s definitely not true.

It is.

The setting is about a place with constant wars and conflict. And the damages derived from it would realistically create all sorts of victims with varying mindsets.

Not to the extent that is would populate a race bud.

To the above, we must add the more recent moderation of what undeath implies.

Examples such as Zelling that welcome undeath as a mean to finish unresolved business, or the new Ebon Blade mindset about carrying on with the duties they had in life, are two very realistic reasonings that could feed Forsaken growth with willing souls.

Both are unique cases and nowhere near the normal way of things.

Zelling did it for a very specific reason which he regretted. Then just decided to turn on his countryman in a flip of a switch cos…?

Ebon Blade doesn’t care what people think, so that comes under the “by force” part which I put up above.

And the rest…yeah, I fail to see any problem with them leeching on unwilling ones too.

Because why wouldn’t they? This is not about whitewashing them completely.

It is meant to be the end of the conflict yet the Forsaken are still attacking and killing people to bolster their ranks. You can’t keep doing this without retaliation because you are flat out killing people. Then this leads back to the whole “why are we keeping them around still” bs.

They could still plunder graveyards,

Which is a limited thing, what most people shouldn’t really want. Unless we go back to the forced thing.

or even bring it as punitive measure for punctual cases.

I can’t see how this could backfire.

Make the Forsaken more Australian?

The initial quests showcase this rather fine: 4 undead brought to life, 1 decides he rather remain dead, 1 decides to join their ranks, and 2 decide to go their own way. Only the one that chose to stand directly against the Forsaken is punished extra.

Yes, then every other instance we have seen them raising people is using manipulation (Silverpine) , were forced (Derek), or were just inconsistent (Captain Stone).

Even the example you gave, more people decided not to join the Forsaken then to join it.

For as long as they keep a low profile, and arent open about the worst of their methods, I fail to see how that would affect their relation with both their allies or enemies (in a way that marked them above the usual frictions between races with opposing interests).

Basically, everyone else will ignore what the Forsaken are doing and pretend this isn’t a problem. lol. Top-quality writing.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

Not to the extent that is would populate a race bud.

Yearly world ending threats and various wars over the course of 35 years.
Yeah, at this point people might as well start wondering how is it possible for anyone to be left alive.

Both are unique cases and nowhere near the normal way of things.

The initial Forsaken experience highlights the fact that this is in fact the normal way of things.
Looking beyond the obvious flaws that come with it, WoWs history has taught us that there are quite a few people that would gladly grasp at the chance of a second life. One that could potentially turn them immortal given appropriate maintenance.

That goes for those that feel like their deaths came “too soon” (Zelling), or those who see undeath as a way to continue their service towards a particular cause (Nazgrim, Thoras).

And that’s leaving aside those that felt forsaken in life, and evil dudes that hunger for the particular sort of power undeath offers.

The possibilities are near infinite. The numbers to draw from, vast.
And the willingness to overstep punctual moral barriers (even if subtly), make all the above a perfect combination for the Forsaken race bolster their numbers reasonably.
Blizzard just needs to create for the a new kind of mean for them to accomplish so.

Personally, the Helcular alternative seems rather appealing.

It is meant to be the end of the conflict yet the Forsaken are still attacking and killing people to bolster their ranks.

There are different degrees to which the Forsaken may adhere in order to grow as species. Rapid, and aggressive growth isn’t the lone route they can take.
Having a more moderate but constant dripping of souls welcomed into their ranks is enough to keep their race going.

There is no need to weaponise their condition and draw attention to them.

And the bit about them killing…yeah, every race kills their enemies.

[Augarrosh-argent-dawn]

Yearly world ending threats and various wars over the course of 35 years.
Yeah, at this point people might as well start wondering how is it possible for anyone to be left alive.

So instead of trying to improve it lets just throw it all out of the window. I mean, who cares about improving the story anyway, right?

Advocating for something which is worse than what we already have because “it makes little sense now so what’s the point” is a terrible stance to take.

The initial Forsaken experience highlights the fact that this is in fact the normal way of things.
Looking beyond the obvious flaws that come with it, WoWs history has taught us that there are quite a few people that would gladly grasp at the chance of a second life. One that could potentially turn them immortal given appropriate maintenance.

And they are unique cases and isn’t even on the same scale for them being able to sustain a faction of people.

It is called a curse for a reason, not some sort of blessing or marmite solution.

That goes for those that feel like their deaths came “too soon” (Zelling), or those who see undeath as a way to continue their service towards a particular cause (Nazgrim, Thoras).

And that’s leaving aside those that felt forsaken in life, and evil dudes that hunger for the particular sort of power undeath offers.

Unique cases like I said, nowhere near the norm’.

The possibilities are near infinite. The numbers to draw from, vast.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

And the willingness to overstep punctual moral barriers (even if subtly), make all the above a perfect combination for the Forsaken race bolster their numbers reasonably.

No it doesn’t. And that only works for a character-to-character basis. Not for an entire group of people.

Blizzard just needs to create for the a new kind of mean for them to accomplish so.

Then that just goes back to the mcguffin part I said. It is lazy and while possibly being the best current solution is still bad.

There are different degrees to which the Forsaken may adhere in order to grow as species. Rapid, and aggressive growth isn’t the lone route they can take.

It is the only visible one to keep their race alive, especially compared to the “volunteers” route.

Having a more moderate but constant dripping of souls welcomed into their ranks is enough to keep their race going.

You need more than moderate, you need replacements and body parts. So they will need to take in more people than they will lose.

There is no need to weaponise their condition and draw attention to them.

Aren’t they already weaponised?

And the bit about them killing…yeah, every race kills their enemies.

Yes, but not to then be raised back up and used to prop up that exact group of people you are fighting. Not only do you lose them they also gain one.

Losing lets say 10 people to a bunch of Orcs/Humans fighting is bad sure, but losing them to Undead is far worse.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

So instead of trying to improve it lets just throw it all out of the window.

No.
Given we are at this point, let’s treat the setting as it realistically would be.

And they are unique cases and isn’t even on the same scale for them being able to sustain a faction of people.

The bulk of the Forsaken race relies on the cases seen throughout the initial introduction for the race, as these cases represent the factions attempt at growth.

Unique cases like I said

Not that unique given they tend to repeat themselves in the initial questing experience for Forsaken.

Not for an entire group of people.

It works about as well as the willingness some Draenei may have to go over a trial that may or not kill them, a human to risk turning into some feral wolf, or a gnome going through some mechanical adjustment to his body.

Then that just goes back to the mcguffin part I said.

The Valkyr route was some logical leap in the right direction. With enough basis in order to guarantee it wasn’t seen out of the blue.
Doubling on the knowledge some may have regarding necromancy is another.

Either are heaps ahead in logic than the stuff the game has often thrown about to explain several kinds of world events.

And the way you try to emphasise on the “weaponising” and “curse” bits, seems to make you ignore the fact that given the latest pieces of lore, the undead aren’t treated as the pariahs you make out of them.
Basically because thanks to the Shadowlands info, they seemingly are some key part of the cycle of life (be that through military service under the Lich King or Maldraxus, or as the caretakers of souls in most of the other death realms).

Even the Scourge has had some soft retcon. To the point the Ebon Blade are serving the Lich King once more out of their own will.

Emphasising on the good aspects that have been tweaked to intervene with the undead state, giving them an angle of “Welcoming forsaken souls”, and moderating the shadiest aspects of their psyche, and I fail to see any sort of problem with the Forsaken continuation.
Beyond the obvious frictions that come with both their state and position regarding races with opposing interests.

[Mahrik-die-aldor]

They are an actual race. You are just biased and racist.

[Augarrosh-argent-dawn]

No.
Given we are at this point, let’s treat the setting as it realistically would be.

And by that you mean being able to supply the Forsaken with enough people through volunteers?

Ye that should be checked off the list immediately, and whoever even came up with it should be demoted.

The bulk of the Forsaken race relies on the cases seen throughout the initial introduction for the race, as these cases represent the factions attempt at growth.

Even going by that logic, 1/4 of the Undead what gets raised up by the Forsaken actually keep with the Forsaken.

Not that unique given they tend to repeat themselves in the initial questing experience for Forsaken.

Yes they are unique, they are there to see that not everyone either accepts or rejects the concept. If you have either one or the other without showing at least a small glimpse of the other side then we would be left to assume that there is no other side as there would be no visible proof of it.

But regardless, these are unique cases. The majority of time we see the Forsaken being raised is against their will, are manipulated due to the nature of dying or are just inconsistent characters who get raised and turn against everything and everyone they ever had and cared about, I.E most Humans and Night Elves.

It works about as well as the willingness some Draenei may have to go over a trial that may or not kill them, a human to risk turning into some feral wolf, or a gnome going through some mechanical adjustment to his body.

• The Draenei example does not force people into the trial.
• The Human example does not force people to become a Worgen and from that to become a feral worgen.
• The Mechagnome example had a civil war over that very issue of forcing people to become more machine-like.

This comparison doesn’t work because the Forsaken have a choice to do it and forcibly raise people.

The Mechagnomes had a choice between their leader forcing his people to become more like robots and the people rose up against him. Where was that for the Forsaken back in Cata’?

The Valkyr route was some logical leap in the right direction. With enough basis in order to guarantee it wasn’t seen out of the blue.
Doubling on the knowledge some may have regarding necromancy is another.

Either are heaps ahead in logic than the stuff the game has often thrown about to explain several kinds of world events.

But then we go back to the “forced” part of the argument again. These methods require people still and I shouldn’t need to argue that people willingly doing it wouldn’t be enough.

And the way you try to emphasise on the “weaponising” and “curse” bits, seems to make you ignore the fact that given the latest pieces of lore, the undead aren’t treated as the pariahs you make out of them.
Basically because thanks to the Shadowlands info, they seemingly are some key part of the cycle of life (be that through military service under the Lich King or Maldraxus, or as the caretakers of souls in most of the other death realms).

Even the Scourge has had some soft retcon. To the point the Ebon Blade are serving the Lich King once more out of their own will.

Well, the plague of undeath was used as a weapon, so to say that the Undead are weaponised isn;t wrong.

They are alive to a magical/biological weapon, there story was (and still is?) to eventually find a cure because the state they live in is agony, it isn’t normal for them. Death should be death and move on to the next path.

Just because some people feel differently to this doesn’t make it right.

[Mahrik-die-aldor]

Actually undeath might be a blessing. Considering that just being an undeath(my subjective theory about Shadowlands), makes you go to the Maw by default because the Arbiter is biased in her judgement.

[Wimbert-die-aldor]

Well, I can’t think of a definition of race where that makes sense, but you do you.

[Steabra-blackmoore]

By the Loa, Erevien, is that you?

[Mahrik-die-aldor]

It is I. Marik the great Sand shaman now. Soon I will become the new warchief.

[Weffi-kilrogg]

well we are now assuming the valkyrs stays whit Sylvanas, but thing is if Sylvanas dies or what ever happens to her, and the valkyrs looses her, they might go back to the forsaken, probably could say Nathanos would also, unless he is so much in love whit sylvanas he joins her.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

And by that you mean being able to supply the Forsaken with enough people through volunteers?

No.

I mean that realistically speaking the huge amount of dead so far would definetly grant the Forsaken a wide variety of people with different mindsets as possible targets willing to accept the gift they offer. For X or Y reasons.

Even going by that logic, 1/4 of the Undead what gets raised up by the Forsaken actually keep with the Forsaken.

Going by that logic 2/4 of the undead raised join the Forsaken as Lillian did so in the end. And there is a third one that was rather fine with remaining as such, but would rather keep to his own and oppose (quite stupidly) a whole army of undead that surrounded him.

If we are to take that as a meaningful sample 25% of those raised would like to return to the grave, 75% of them would rather have a second chance and remain undead. And 50% would rather go Forsaken.

Yeah, if we are to extrapolate said percentages to the Forsaken intent, they surely have a viable way of maintaining and even growing as a “race”.

The majority of time we see the Forsaken being raised is against their will

No.

We have literal clarification in BfA, voiced by Lillian Voss, that cases such as Dereks are oddities that go against the basic notion Forsaken preach about.
You are grasping at the flashy occasions that impacted you most, where the Forsaken weaponized their condition out of military comfort.

And i’ve already addressed that argument.

Where was that for the Forsaken back in Cata’?

When, outside imminent conflict, in a place dedicated exclusively to the sort of “growth” their race was meddling with thanks to the Valkyr, Sylvanas offered the choice to join them, leave or go back to the grave.

And this choice was highlighted by writers through a quest that showed players different points of view regarding undeath.

Regarding the previous examples, those have too been weaponized by the races that currently embrace them: The Lightbound used similar tactics to subdue AU Draenor, Genn had nobles drink on Worgen blood to make them fight Sylvanas, and Mechagon almost wiped the entire planet with his invention.

They are alive to a magical/biological weapon, there story was (and still is?) to eventually find a cure because the state they live in is agony, it isn’t normal for them.

This was retconned in BtS. And will be again to remove the sort of negative baggage you give it, once Shadowlands hits.

Death should be death and move on to the next path.

This is a fantasy universe. The normal way of things doesn’t work here.

The Curse of Flesh, a LITERAL CURSE designed to destroy the planet, is what gave “life” to most of the sentinent races on Azeroth.

[Augarrosh-argent-dawn]

Actually undeath might be a blessing. Considering that just being an undeath(my subjective theory about Shadowlands), makes you go to the Maw by default because the Arbiter is biased in her judgement.

The key part is that this is your theory.

No.

I mean that realistically speaking the huge amount of dead so far would definetly grant the Forsaken a wide variety of people with different mindsets as possible targets willing to accept the gift they offer. For X or Y reasons.

Beyond the fact that it is (or should) be a low chance for X to accept Undeath willingly this is also an unsustainable method.

This would at the very minimum bump down the Forsaken to a secondary power. They would probably have a population less than the Goblins.

Going by that logic 2/4 of the undead raised join the Forsaken as Lillian did so in the end.

No, because Lillian joined to spy on them from the Uncrowned.

From a meta-perspective she joined because the writers can’t think of a better way to get her to join without ruining her character, which they did anyway.

And there is a third one that was rather fine with remaining as such, but would rather keep to his own and oppose (quite stupidly) a whole army of undead that surrounded him.

Before continuing we are talking about the guy what started his own Undead group and was killed along with his followers?

If we are to take that as a meaningful sample 25% of those raised would like to return to the grave, 75% of them would rather have a second chance and remain undead. And 50% would rather go Forsaken.

Change that to 25%, Lillian joined the Forsaken as a spy.

Yeah, if we are to extrapolate said percentages to the Forsaken intent, they surely have a viable way of maintaining and even growing as a “race”.

No, not really.

No.

Yes, every example of Forsaken being raised outside the starting zone quests are forced.

We have literal clarification in BfA, voiced by Lillian Voss, that cases such as Dereks are oddities that go against the basic notion Forsaken preach about.
You are grasping at the flashy occasions that impacted you most, where the Forsaken weaponized their condition out of military comfort.

And i’ve already addressed that argument.

Silverpine questing would disagree. Them refugees were targeted, exploited and raised up to fill in the ranks.

That goes against everything Lillian said. And I believe seeing it first hand is better proof than anything Lillian perspective.

When, outside imminent conflict, in a place dedicated exclusively to the sort of “growth” their race was meddling with thanks to the Valkyr, Sylvanas offered the choice to join them, leave or go back to the grave.

And this choice was highlighted by writers through a quest that showed players different points of view regarding undeath.

This is irrelevant to the point I was making. Forsaken had a choice by supporting the mass raising of refugees regardless of the starting zone quests.

There was no proper choice for the Forsaken to be raised, and this is meant to be a pillar stone of the Forsaken and should send ripple effects throughout their people and nation. But it didn’t, it was ignored and never brought up.

Regarding the previous examples, those have too been weaponized by the races that currently embrace them: The Lightbound used similar tactics to subdue AU Draenor, Genn had nobles drink on Worgen blood to make them fight Sylvanas, and Mechagon almost wiped the entire planet with his invention.

The Lightforged have a choice when to do the trial like I said, and there is no other example of the Lightforced doing this on the innocent or people who don’t want to do it.

Genn didn’t make the nobles drink the blood, you can argue that he wanted them to, but he didn’t force them.

And ye Mechagone had a civil war over forcing people to become more mechanical.

This was retconned in BtS. And will be again to remove the sort of negative baggage you give it, once Shadowlands hits.

What part of it was retconned in BtS?

This is a fantasy universe. The normal way of things doesn’t work here.

It does, and in this fantasy universe death was death until the LK’s creation.

The Curse of Flesh, a LITERAL CURSE designed to destroy the planet, is what gave “life” to most of the sentinent races on Azeroth.

Curse wasn’t designed to destroy the planet, it was designed to weaken the Titan constructs

And Isn’t that why you have people like Algalon, Ra’den and basically the majority of the titan aligned people didn’t treat the mortals with any care?

[Aralë-kazzak]

they will be when they need it as plot point,else will be infinite.
same goes for any race.

theyre basilcy extint but yet can spare a large suicide squad for example.(nelfs)

[Mahrik-die-aldor]

Yes, every example of Forsaken being raised outside the starting zone quests are forced.

You have literally no evidence for that.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

Beyond the fact that it is (or should) be a low chance for X to accept Undeath willingly this is also an unsustainable method.

Why would it? People that feel like their death was unjust, people with unresolved business, people that feel tied to a duty they had in life,…

All these multiply exponentially the bigger the dead toll is.
Not a single Horseman argued against Darions attempt at resurrection, most of those raised out of conflicted areas felt like continuing their undead life.

The latest lore information, has the Valkyr being capable of bringing back just willing souls.

And the only thing left you have is to grasp at those examples when Sylvanas weaponised said practice.
Or punctual acts such as Dereks case where even Lillian is used as a mouthpiece to make us know that said sort of mindbreak and forceful conversion is not the usual Forsaken way.

Even back in Cata, devs went ahead to clarify that the only reason Sylvanas managed to take advantage of said circumstance, was because upon reanimation, those that died under stressful conditions were affected by transitory frenzy that could be utilised.

No, because Lillian joined to spy on them from the Uncrowned.

That was Garona. Lillian spends the entire War campaign experience facilitating the transition for those that joined the Forsaken.
Speaking as a relevant mouthpiece for the faction.

Before continuing we are talking about the guy what started his own Undead group and was killed along with his followers?

Yes. Marshall Redpath.
The guy that after getting resurrected, shrugged off his new condition, and had the brilliant idea of creating his own faction to oppose Sylvanas…right at her doorstep and surrounded by her army.

Yes, every example of Forsaken being raised outside the starting zone quests are forced.

Zelling wasn’t forced. The only examples that could’ve counted as forced, are those that circle back to the clarification about Sylvanas taking advantage of the frenzied state of those that died in battle. Again, you are grasping at those cases where the Forsaken were trying to weaponise their condition, not the normal ones born out of population attempts.

What part of it was retconned in BtS?

The bit about undeath seen as a curse that needs a cure from a Forsaken point of view.

Curse wasn’t designed to destroy the planet, it was designed to weaken the Titan constructs

Still, it was designed as a weapon.