Are the Forsaken facing extinction one again?

[Daelinna-argent-dawn]

Silverpine undead start fighting for the Forsaken without question even though 10 minutes ago they were fighting against them. The Forsaken in Andorhal were in a frenzy and Sylvanas exploited that and used them as puppets for the battle.

[Thurgrash-defias-brotherhood]

But the forsaken do have a method of increasing their numbers that has existed since Warcraft 3 TFT, don’t they?

I mean, the original forsaken were those undead that broke away from the Lich King’s domination when his power was threatened. And that was only for a relatively short time. So couldn’t more forsaken be ‘freed’ the same way?

Even now, the scourge is supposed to be this massive threat to the world held in check by the new Lich King.

Spoilers for upcoming expansion

However Sylvanas is about to destroy the very object that allows him to do that.

So aren’t there potentially countless more forsaken waiting to be ‘freed’ (which I would imagine as a rather slow constant trickle of souls ‘waking up’ over time rather than one massive event)?

Spoilers for upcoming expansion

After many doomed attempts, Sylvanas may actually succeed in securing a future for the Forsaken by abandoning them to go off to do her own selfish things.

[Augarrosh-argent-dawn]

Why would it? People that feel like their death was unjust, people with unresolved business, people that feel tied to a duty they had in life,…

All these multiply exponentially the bigger the dead toll is.

Because it is not natural? What is next? People joining the Burning Legion for that exact reason? People joining the Void?

Why do Ghosts hate living in Azeroth then?

Not a single Horseman argued against Darions attempt at resurrection, most of those raised out of conflicted areas felt like continuing their undead life.

Besides the paladins, and these were used for a greater cause, not to resolve personal issues.

The latest lore information, has the Valkyr being capable of bringing back just willing souls.

That was always meant to be the case with Forsaken Val’kyr? They had to use an exploit to bring back the unwilling ones, but that really just comes down to inconsistent writing.

And the only thing left you have is to grasp at those examples when Sylvanas weaponised said practice.

I am the one grasping here? Lol. Just lol.

Or punctual acts such as Dereks case where even Lillian is used as a mouthpiece to make us know that said sort of mindbreak and forceful conversion is not the usual Forsaken way.

And yet Silverpine is a clear example where Lillian is wrong.

And she wasn’t even part of the Forsaken till BfA so she wouldn’t know f all on the inner workings of the Forsaken.

Funny how you haven’t mentioned Silverpine at all despite all the times it has been brought up, almost like it undermines your entire argument so you just ignore it.

Even back in Cata, devs went ahead to clarify that the only reason Sylvanas managed to take advantage of said circumstance, was because upon reanimation, those that died under stressful conditions were affected by transitory frenzy that could be utilised.

Yes, she manipulated them. That is what I said from the start. They didn’t have a choice and were used as cannonfodder for the frontlines.

That was Garona. Lillian spends the entire War campaign experience facilitating the transition for those that joined the Forsaken.
Speaking as a relevant mouthpiece for the faction.

She still represents the Uncrowned. Just because she isn’t as high of a rank doesn’t mean she isn’t part of them.

The same could be said about Tess to a lesser extent. But she actually has a personal vendetta that her new home was burned compared to Lillian who has nothing keeping her with the Forsaken or Garona who even by Legion is still haunted by killing Anduin’s grandfather.

Yes. Marshall Redpath.
The guy that after getting resurrected, shrugged off his new condition, and had the brilliant idea of creating his own faction to oppose Sylvanas…right at her doorstep and surrounded by her army.

Indeed, no rival factions are allowed it seems. And he soon got a lot of followers in a short amount of time.

Zelling wasn’t forced. The only examples that could’ve counted as forced, are those that circle back to the clarification about Sylvanas taking advantage of the frenzied state of those that died in battle.

What do you mean he wasn’t? He had a choice didn’t he? And if you want to use to the whole “same like Silverpine” then how come they were in such a state as what he was?

How come they didn’t need to be chained up?

Again, you are grasping at those cases where the Forsaken were trying to weaponise their condition, not the normal ones born out of population attempts.

No I am not.

Most times we see Forsaken resurrection is by force or manipulation and to use in their army.

This isn’t wrong, this is a fact.

[quote=“Zarao-colinas-pardas, post:40, topic:118904”]
The bit about undeath seen as a curse that needs a cure from a Forsaken point of view.

The bit about undeath seen as a curse that needs a cure from a Forsaken point of view.

I would argue that this is just a changing mindset for X group of people rather than a retcon. Nor does or should that speak for the entire Forsaken population

If you were to do a poll then the odds are that more people would want to be cured then not.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

Because it is not natural?

In a setting like Azeroth, what’s “natural” is subject to heavy debate.

We might expect sensible reactions to situations that can be extrapolated to our real life views, but the setting itself is still lenient on core fantasy.

For good or ill, there are a lot of instances that have people embracing undeath as a way of life. And said amount will only increase with a bigger death toll.
Kill 100 people and 10 of them might want to return, kill 100.000 and even if only 10% are of said mindset, that still translates into 10.000 new undead.

I am the one grasping here?

Yes.
You are grasping at those scenarios where the Forsaken used their condition as a weapon, while trying to argue that’s the way they’d have to tackle population issues.

You are taking instances were the endgoal was to quickly create shock troops to accomplish a purely military goal (Gilneas conquest), and proclaiming that’s the way they use to address a different goal such as “reproduction” and recruitment.
While also waving aside the places where Forsaken are shown explicitly working towards said goal, and where they show a completely different approach.

In Tirisfal the modus followed is one about offering the chance. Then, the subject may decide to return to his grave, or to remain as undead. And not even undeath binds them to the Forsaken, as they are left to decide whether join or not (being punished only if they go about directly attacking the Forsaken faction).

That’s how the Forsaken “procreation” was solved in Cataclysm.
Silverpine was but a weaponisation of said process. A way to turn said way into something other than a way to sustain their people.

Creating a way that fosters the practices displayed to solve the population issues, without the abrasive ways that try to weaponise them, is a perfectly balanced approach that guarantees the continuation of the race without causing any more trouble than the ones derived from the usual frictions with the sort of race Forsaken are.

Indeed, no rival factions are allowed it seems.

Free will doesn’t mean you are free to kill or stab me without consequences.

There were two examples for the sort of free willed undead that left the sepulchre: Voss and Redpath.

The former decided to let the Forsaken be and went her own way. The latter decided to create a new faction at their own doorstep proclaiming by voice and action his direct enmity with their kingdom.

Only the latter was punished.

[Augarrosh-argent-dawn]

In a setting like Azeroth, what’s “natural” is subject to heavy debate.

And yet, the state of undeath has only been around for a few years.

You could argue this if it was like Fel, but it isn’t.

We might expect sensible reactions to situations that can be extrapolated to our real life views, but the setting itself is still lenient on core fantasy.

But core fantasy would mean passing onto another plane of existence, like with most other fantasy settings where people die.

Regardless whether comparing it to our standards or that of most fantasy settings it is odd and not natural.

For good or ill, there are a lot of instances that have people embracing undeath as a way of life. And said amount will only increase with a bigger death toll.
Kill 100 people and 10 of them might want to return, kill 100.000 and even if only 10% are of said mindset, that still translates into 10.000 new undead.

They are unique instances, it is like saying that there is mass defection in both factions with the amount of times we see people on the other side. Just because they give you an example doesn’t mean it is common. What is next, people wanting to join the BL on mass because we see 2 dudes and a dog do it? Lol.

And ye sure, it does increase with the number of dead people, but grave robbing is a limited time use and unless either change nations to allow there dead to be raised (goodluck with that) or go around killing more people then the number you would get isn’t sustainable to keep the Forsaken population high. They would soon drop to a secondary power very quickly.

Yes.
You are grasping at those scenarios where the Forsaken used their condition as a weapon, while trying to argue that’s the way they’d have to tackle population issues.

No I am not trying to argue that is the way to tackle population issues because it would cause a lot more problems then it would solve.

Have you been reading anything what I have said?

You are taking instances were the endgoal was to quickly create shock troops to accomplish a purely military goal (Gilneas conquest), and proclaiming that’s the way they use to address a different goal such as “reproduction” and recruitment.
While also waving aside the places where Forsaken are shown explicitly working towards said goal, and where they show a completely different approach.

My argument using Silverpine was that the Val’kyr used an exploit/manipulation to raise innocents from the ground without giving them a proper choice to use for their war machine.

Where was the choice in that? And that was the point of arguing about Silverpine, clearly something you ignored.

If the population was easily solved in just grave robbing then why did they get desperate to start targetting innocents to increase their numbers?

It is inconsistent at best and lore breaking at worst.

In Tirisfal the modus followed is one about offering the chance. Then, the subject may decide to return to his grave, or to remain as undead. And not even undeath binds them to the Forsaken, as they are left to decide whether join or not (being punished only if they go about directly attacking the Forsaken faction).

And what about the other Undead what are going about there day? You don’t seem to care the moment you start you are off killing other Undead.

Or, is it only certain Undead allowed now?

And that guy also gained a lot of followers, I do like how you don’t mention that. It does kinda take a chunk out of your argument that one newly risen guy was able to get a following in a click.

That’s how the Forsaken “procreation” was solved in Cataclysm.
Silverpine was but a weaponisation of said process. A way to turn said way into something other than a way to sustain their people.

Creating a way that fosters the practices displayed to solve the population issues, without the abrasive ways that try to weaponise them, is a perfectly balanced approach that guarantees the continuation of the race without causing any more trouble than the ones derived from the usual frictions with the sort of race Forsaken are.

And I would argue against that.

The Forsaken population was indeed sustained in Cata’, but there were way more example of Forsaken being sustained through the means I said from the start (forced, manipulation etc…) that without that the Forsaken would crumble.

Sure, it was for the war effort, I am not arguing that. But more Undead were raised by force than not, a lot more. And without that you have to rely on grave robbing and volunteers which isn’t sustainable in the slightest.

Free will doesn’t mean you are free to kill or stab me without consequences.

Nope, and that doesn’t mean you can walk into a rivals camp and murder everyone there.

There were two examples for the sort of free willed undead that left the sepulchre: Voss and Redpath.

The former decided to let the Forsaken be and went her own way. The latter decided to create a new faction at their own doorstep proclaiming by voice and action his direct enmity with their kingdom.

Only the latter was punished.

And the former was conscripted without choice, or would have been if we didn’t know about the Uncrowned.

Not exactly ideal when even if you go free you get forced to serve the Forsaken. So much for free will.

[Blackchain-argent-dawn]

Just to clarify, Wimbert is right. Forsaken are not a race, they are a faction.

[Jaigo-tarren-mill]

They’ll find something to source new animated corpses from. There’s no way that I can think of that enables them to do to without appearing evil though, so they’ll always be the darker segment of the horde.

[Kernns-argent-dawn (Kernns)]

You know if I am remembering this right, the Scarlet Onslaught had blessings to stop there fallen from being turned into the undead.

Forsaken Extinction could happen if the alliance simply listened to the Scarlets.

I speak of the blessings from the Scarlet Raven Priests if anyone remembers.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

And yet, the state of undeath has only been around for a few years.

It has not. Ancestors, spirit realm, the Valkyr, and the shadowlands, have all been part of the games cosmology since it first was introduced.
Going back to life, and leeching from the sort of magic that delves in Death, has always been part of the themes surrounding certain people.

But core fantasy would mean passing onto another plane of existence, like with most other fantasy settings where people die.

No. Core fantasy draws on afterlife, ghosts, and souls.
And more often than not, takes necromancy as a given in certain settings.

They are unique instances

They are not. Returning souls that have unfinished business with the living is a staple mannerism for most fictional settings.
Having dutiful soldiers whose duty transcends death itself, same.

And having twisted individuals going after undead power is almost a cliche.

All the above represent a staple source for Forsaken to draw from.

but grave robbing is a limited time use and unless either change nations to allow there dead to be raised (goodluck with that) or go around killing more people then the number you would get isn’t sustainable to keep the Forsaken population high

Why? The cycle of life creates a never ending number of people that die of old age. A number that is pumped by a setting with constant strife and conflict that adds forced deaths to the natural ones.

Where was the choice in that? And that was the point of arguing about Silverpine, clearly something you ignored.

I’m not ignoring it. I just fail to see why is it relevant regarding how would Forsaken create a mean to sustain their race.

And what about the other Undead what are going about there day? You don’t seem to care the moment you start you are off killing other Undead.

Or, is it only certain Undead allowed now?

When you declare yourself an enemy of another faction, and either attack or proclaim your intention to do so, you open yourself to the repercussions such acts entail.

And whether you are undead or not is irrelevant.

Redpath was killed because he decided to be an enemy to the Forsaken. Not because he was an undead unwilling to join their ranks.

If some Human, Stormwind born and bred, decided to create his own faction to attack and kill Stormwind citizens, he would probably get the exact same treatment.

Again, having free will doesn’t give you a free pass to do whatever you want without consequences.

Fact remains, that he was given the choice to do whatever he wanted. Him wasting it by being stupid enough to lash back at them is entirely on him.

[Augarrosh-argent-dawn]

Lets just agree to disagree.

I think we both have better things to do.

[Rahisa-argent-dawn]

So, while this is really dark and well beyond the “grey” in “morally grey”…

One thing they could do to keep the Forsaken plausible is to create some sort of cult. Azeroth is dangerous. Full of war, diseases and all kinds of evil. The Forsaken can help you and your family, whatever it is you need.

But in exchange, your body will be reanimated and serve them for a certain amount of years, subject to negotiations. After those years, you are free to die or continue as a Forsaken.

Basically you sell your body after death to get help (e.g. money, protection, medical treatment) while alive.

There will always be poor and unfortunate people who would agree to such a deal, especially in a world like Azeroth where there is war and monsters everywhere and not even the king of mankind pays his masons for their work.