It is all the “brain damage” and “retarded” comments you made, not your arguments.
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Man look at that you really are a pathetic loser. Whats the matter? If you think that i am wrong then why don’t you just prove it? Are you guys so pathetic none of you can even argue against another human?
Well if you actually went after my arguments and stop with your dumb assumptions i would not have to call you brain damage and retarded.
Sadly i am all out of reports for today. I might visit this topic again tomorow.
Right report some one when you can not even prove them wrong. But then again i do not expect anything else from a bunch of people who have no arguments to why LFD should not be in WRATH.
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Didnt plan on coming back here since its completely useless trying to argue anything with purists but uuh… (and i kinda dislike saying this too but its just true)
The ratio speaks for itself.
Lol I am still laughing from the little gnome’s posts! “I am here to defend the community!!”. “You are anti-social!”, “Having an automated way to form a group is wrong”. Because you need to have a thorough conversation with the party leader as the party is forming or else you are anti-social 
Because you dont use an addon to filter the spam from the chat channels and find the useful things.
Well I think voice communication should be enforced. We cannot let anti-socials ruin our MMORPG. It will destroy our community. You know, the community that sells loot for gold bought from sites, the community that sells tanking service or the community that will demand raid gear to do a dungeon, the community that is pro at cheating in BGs. That community. And RDF is the enemy. Ok.
I really think people do not understand that Looking for Raid made things worse for the game and not RFD.
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A lot of people don’t seem to (or don’t want to) understand that the large majority of PvE communities (guilds, but also pug groups and Discord servers) in Wrath (and, I’d say, in TBC too) are built around raids, not dungeons. Most people play dungeons in these versions of WoW only because they eventually plan to play raids. In fact I’d go insofar as to say that, without something like Mythic dungeons, the appeal dungeons have as the centerpiece of the PvE experience, for most players, is even less than the leveling experience had for players in Vanilla.
Hence why you will hear people keeping on saying that LFD is just like LFR and that it will “destroy communities”, as if there have ever been communities built around dungeons in these versions of WoW to begin with.
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I guess the argument would be that gearing to be raid ready requires dungeons and if it is painful enough to find dungeons as a solo player, players will feel forced to join guilds. Some will join guilds and other will quit and both are a good thing for their MMORPG vanilla like experience.
I can understand this reasoning, but in my opinion it is very selfish and I disagree that trying to keep a major part of the community away from the game would be a good thing for wotlk. Wotlk had its design changes and features to be more appealing with specifically these players in mind, that the anti-RDF crew despises.
Agreed. The problem with dungeons, and perhaps one of the biggest mistakes of WLK, is that they never ceased to be important. No matter what tier you were on you’d pretty much always run dungeons for the badges. Your gear improved and yet the challenge of the dungeons remained unchanged. Eventually there was no challenge anymore and it simply became unfun grind content. That is the problem.
When was the last time a normal or heroic dungeon was fun in retail? It’s just grind content. It is designed to be defeated by groups utilizing the one repetitive strategy of “group up all and aoe”. There’s no finesse to it nor any challenge, and so no need to communicate. You click the convenience-button to play the trivial content for its rewards, not for the social aspect or the gameplay. The Dungeon Finder was an answer to an already broken design.
Mythic dungeons, on the other hand, are fun. And in my experience social interactions do occur in mythics. I think a system similar to mythic could be a great addition to the WLK experience. Rather than have us grind unfun and trivial content, create tiers for the dungeons. When a new raid tier is released (and so a new vendor) release a new difficulty tier for dungeons as well. Want the badges for the new vendor? Then you’ll have to play the new tier.
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I am sure they did it because people started by then consuming content faster and faster. And making dungeons relevant throughout the expansion was not a bad idea. It was a cool way to do things. People would complain from not having anything to do! Mythic is indeed pretty cool but it was “invented” later.
You have a point. Perhaps grindy content is better than having no content at all. I personally took a hiatus from TBCC after I had become exalted with the two factions introduced in Phase 2 simply because I wasn’t interested in raiding full time, and for smaller casual guilds it was hard to get 25 people. I stayed away from the game until quite recently.
But I maintain that the design of WLK dungeons was still a poor one. The “downwards spiral” that so many of us believe retail has descended did not begin with a single change, but many small changes, and I believe the design philosophy of “bring the player not the class” in addition to using trivial content as both necessary and catch-up content to be contributing factors to why WoW became what it became. If Blizzard just keeps rehashing old expansions without making any adjustments we’re just going to be treading down the same path again.
This is where I believe that #somechanges is necessary. Classic has proven that the modern playerbase is not the same as the old playerbase. We simply know too much these days, and I think the average player today is more skilled than the average player back in 2007-2009. Consider the response seen here on these forums when Blizzard dumbed down Karazhan “because that’s how it was in TBC”. It was seen as an unnecessary change, and it didn’t make the game any more fun and I don’t think it really helped anyone either.
Or we can just reintroduce the Dungeon Finder and retread old ground. It seems to be a welcome change. In the eyes of the modern player, nothing is more “fun” than convenience.
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This. Also, we may complain, but we need to understand that wow is an old IP. It has managed to stay top for 15-16 years.
This as well. I agree! They tried to do something that sounded good and fair but it ended up bad. I really think that back then they tried a lot. Not everything worked well. The minmaxing nature of community forced them to make such changes though. When people stacked a certain class because it was the most efficient, they tried to combat this. Isn’t it weird that people did not want to have fun by bringing multiple classes or trying even a slightly inferior setup; the wanted to play the most efficient way.
Still WoW is the standard that other games compares to. This is big achievement.
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You cannot undo history though. If you want to keep away any feature, any design change from the game, you would have to redesign the whole game, including itemization, class design and rewards. In wotlk it would be class design, heirlooms, dual spec, gear progression/catchup systems, profession changes, battleground changes (queue from everywhere, exp gain), RDF and even the idea of a “hero class”. Only the maps would remain. Even tbc could have been redesigned without flying mounts, that made players meet and interact much less than before. Would it have been a better game? Who knows.
I myself are convinced, that the current Blizzard team isnt able to do a better job at making good decisions and ultimately good games, than the Blizzard team of the past. One or two changes wont change the game or the way it developed much. Effectively asking them to create a whole new game wont end well.
I totally agree. Every patch - generally spoken - made the game faster, easier, more accesible … as a result reqiring less thinking and planning. But this accelerated in Wrath (with 3.2.0 and 3.3.0 being the ‘worst’).
If those #someChanges were not just more in-game help, faster, esier ect. I’m all for it - and this should not only be for dungeons - also for levelling and pofessions. (Just look at the laughable fishing in Retail).
We will acutually never know because Classic, TBCC and now Wrath Classic has been build on the last, and hence easiest patch.
It doesn’t really work that way, though.
As I explained before, the most chill guilds (the ones most likely to invite an undergeared person, especially later in the expansion) often are made mostly of raid loggers, or anyway people who don’t nolife the game. Therefore in such a guild you’re unlikely to have lots of people to pick from to help you with dungeons.
By contrast, hardcore guilds are more likely to have many ppl, constantly online, who’re ready and eager to go into dungeons with their many alts. But those guilds are less likely to invite a newbie to begin with.
So, at the end of the day, not having RDF doesn’t increase the amount of ppl joining guild. Quite the contrary, it just pushes more new players to quit, period. Whereas having RDF allows more people to gear up for raids and THEN they join a guild or stable pug group to do said raids. That’s how it’s been working on eternal WotLK pservers for years.
That’s not a problem per se. If dungeons were not “relevant”, you’d be stuck with something like Vanilla where ppl only raid log and that’s it, and there’re no other methods to catch up for raids.
There really wouldn’t be any problem if RDF was in the game, because the social aspect of the game would still survive in raids anyway - which are the core PvE experience in the game. If people want a social experience in 5m dungeons, WotLK is simply not the right WoW version for them, and removing RDF won’t fix it. At all. It’ll just make the experience worse for most players.
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They are removing it because most people won’t buy 70 boost, because dungeon spam is so fast and easy
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Exactly that, you have not exchanged a single word. hahaha, o m f g.
PvE is bad for WoW and should be removed, f*** people who wanna PvE.
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Not only that - what matters is the changes it brought to gameplay.
Most importantly:
- Dungeon Finder teleports you to the dungeon instantly and sends you back where you were before you joined.
- It made dungeon runs take much less time and effort, effectively increasing loot output - especially emblems (which were a mess once Dungeon Finder launcher)
but also it’s important to remember that:
- It turned dungeons from adventure into routine - basically what world quests are today
- The inviting and kicking was too mechanical (in early iterations, the group leader could kick, invite, or list the group, without any voting) and it was too convenient to replace someone simply because they aren’t fast enough to carry the leader
- It didn’t appear in the game until patch 3.3, which can easily be called “Cataclysm prepatch” because it introduced many Cataclysm systems (removal of class quests, Dungeon Finder, etc) - in Vanilla there was a very early version but it didn’t take roles into account so you’d get a group with like 3 healers and 2 tanks, therefore nobody used it.
Blizzard came up with the idea of adding premade group UI from retail, but I’d say that’s a bad idea - if anything, they should at least mimic Classic UI design.
Dungeons are already a routine - that’s why we need RDF in the first place. Not having RDF won’t magically make dungeons feel more difficult or rewarding in WotLK. It will just make people realize they’re not worth the time and effort compared to raids (aside maybe from the daily hc).
In order to make dungeons what you seem to be wanting them to be, they’d need to do WAY more than just removing RDF. They’d need to add something like Mythic dungeons and a dungeon-oriented progression system in there that just doesn’t exist in WotLK. In WotLK, dungeons are just an intermediate step in the progression towards raids, and RDF fits that game design perfectly. Removing RDF without revamping the underlying game design that justified RDF’s existence is only gonna make people play dungeons less, and either get boosted in raids or just opt out of playing more alts, or of playing the game at all if they’re late.