Arms:
Intimidating Shout - 8y range Fear 1.5min cooldown
Storm bolt (TALENT) - 20y range 4 sec stun 30 sec cooldown
Spell Reflect (PVP TALENT)
Defensive Stance - (TALENT) on the same row as Heroic Leap
Banner ( PVP TALENT) 50% reduced CC and 30% movement speed 1.5min CD
Disarm ( PVP TALENT) 45 sec cd
Hamstring - On GCD
Rallying Cry - 3 minute cooldown
Retaliation - 100% Parry, 35% damage reduction for 8 sec
Why are Heroic Leap and Defensive Stance both talents on the same row?
Why is Stormbolt a TALENT
Why is Hamstring on a GCD?
Why is Defensive Stance a TALENT
Rogue:
Stealth, faster than mounts
Sap, (NOT A TALENT) no cooldown- 8 sec incapacitate
Cheap shot (NOT A TALENT) 4 sec stun, no cooldown
Kidney Shot (NOT A TALENT) 6 sec stun, 20 sec cooldown
Blind (NOT A TALENT)2 min cooldon, 15 y range, canât be removed as easily as Intimidating Shout
Shadowstep(NOT A TALENT), 25y range 30 sec cd- (also increases movement speed by 70% and is a TELEPORT to the target, not a leap or charge which both are stopped by monk ring or slow & stuns before you reach your target),
Evasion(NOT A TALENT), 2 min cd 100% evasion
Feint (NOT A TALENT), 15 sec cooldown, aoe dmg reduction 40%
Vanish (NOT A TALENT)
Cheat Death (PASSIVE TALENT)
Cloak of Shadows(NOT A TALENT) - Magic immunity, instantly removing all harmful spell effects. The cloak lingers, causing you to resist harmful spells for 5 sec.
Slow based on posions, not on GCD
Crimson Vial (NOT A TALENT) 30% heal over 6 seconds (5% each 1 sec) with just 30 sec cooldown.
Soothing Darkness Heal (Talent) You heal 3% of your maximum health every 1
Mortal wounds based on posions, not on GCD
So to sum up,
Rogues clearly have more utility cooldowns than warriors.
Rogues can CC better since all abilites are either teleport or have a bigger range than warriors.
Rogues have all their utility on spells rather than talents like warriors
Rogues have much more survivability compared to warriors. They both take the same damage regardless of Plate vs Leather armor?
Rogues have mortal wounds on posions while warriors on mortal strike cooldown
Rogues move faster than warriors (Stealth or mounted)
Rogues slow passively with posion while warriors slow with harmstring on a global cooldown.
Rogues have a LOT more passive dodge than warriors
Both Assasination and Subtlety are viabile in Arenas while Warriors clearly have an arms presence of 90%+
Edit: Cloak of Shadows description, title & added point 9, grammar, Feedback.
The following part of text was added after the original post. for visibility.
Hereâs some change I came up with of the top of my head the Warrior would benefit from.
Charge - keep PvP old effect
âPvE only extra effect - Charge to an enemy, dealing (11.466% of Attack power) Physical damage, taunting it and gaining Bull Rush, making you take 80% reduced damage from the next physical attack against you. Generates 20 Rage.â
Warbreaker - make it that targets affected by Rend or deep wounds "slow the targets a lot or interrupt them (or both).
Slow = 70% or more but only for a 5 seconds, not 8
Interrupt = could be just an interrupt.
Warbreaker
âSmash the ground and shatter the armor of all enemies within 8 yds, dealing (150% of Attack power) Physical damage and increasing damage you deal to them by 30% for 10 sec. Targets affected by rend will also be slowed by 70% and will be interruptedâ
Intimidating Shout - Make it more useful in PvE, like having the targets cower in a horrified effect for 3-5 seconds.
PvE Effect - âCauses all enemies around the warrior within 8 yards to cower in horror for 3-4 seconds, allowing the targets to take damage up to 20% of their health without breaking the horrorâ
PvP Effect - should remain the same
Heroic Leap
âLeap through the air toward a target location, slamming down with destructive force to deal (250% of Attack Power) Physical damage to all enemies within 8 yards. Targets damaged by Heroic Leap will be affected by Rends or Deep Wound.â
Mastery: Weapon Specialization (thatâs what a warrior mastery should mean in my opinion)
â2h Swords: Your abilities have a chance to trigger an extra melee hit by 15% 2h Maces: Your abilities have a chance to slam the ground, dealing x% of Attack power damage to targets around you - 8y. 2h Axes: Your abilites have a 10% chance to trigger Veteran Precision, increasing your critical strike by 100% on your next abilityâ
Rallying Cry
**"**Temporarily grants you and all party or raid members within 40 yards 15% of maximum health for 10 sec. After the effect expires, the health is lost.
After the effect expires, gain Motivation, adding an absorb shield to the target up to 25% of their max HP based on the amount of damage taken during Rallying Cry."
Mortal Strike - keep Mortal Wounds in pvp
âPvE only extra effect - A vicious strike that deals (119% of Attack power) Physical damage and reduces the effectiveness of their weapons, reducing their attack speed by 25% for 10 seconds.â
Iâm sure I could summon more of these If I had more spare time.
False but sure
Sap requires to be out of combat
Rogue is living up to what little class fantasy it has left, being a dirty fighter. Not a warrior If you look at vanilla warrior all they had then was victory rush in terms of spells, and just like BFA you -can- talent into a heal. Theres no point comparing side by side CDs of two classes cause you had a tragic accident of a match probably.
If rogue stood toe to toe against a fury warrior they would die, no questions asked. You clearly donât see why rogue has all the utility they are given.
There is no point discussing what 1v1 means for Fury vs Rogue. I am strictly talking about the class utility of Rogues vs Warriors.
I did not have a âtragic accidentâ of a match. Iâve been playing warrior since vanilla, and rogues have been the class with the highest amount of utility AND damage at the same time.
What I am trying to convey here is that almost all of the warriorâs utility cooldowns are talent based while rogues spells/abilities are class based.
I have to sacrifice good talents in order to gain minimal utility while you, as a rogue, already have the utility in your class and you will target all talents that increase your damage.
How would it be if warriors or other classes had all cooldowns like you do based on class, and all my talent points would go to damage increases , rage gains, and actual good cooldowns? The answer is fair.
Edit: To answer your question about stealth & sap speed? How many times have you not managed to sap your target at the beginning of the arena or after resetting combat by running or vanishing vs how many times did you manage? Again, the answer is, a skilled rogue, which at 2k you will find many, will always manage to sap in 3v3 or 2v2.
Lets not forget itâs an AoE and thus can fear multiple players/pets. Can therefore nullify the damage and healing of a whole team is used at the right time, or simply CC one targer if thatâs all thatâs needed.
Iâm pretty sure in thr facts is has a lower cooldown, no ? Donât you reduce it when you spend rage, or is that a thing that got removed with BfA ?
And either way lets not ignore the fact that itâs ranged and cannot be dodged or parried unlike Kidney Shot.
Because you cannot have the mobility of a Monk plus a passive damage reduction that doesnât require any action from the player. Since you seem to compare with Rogues the closest thing we have is Elusivness, reducing damage by 30% for 15s on a 15s CD at the cost of 35 energy. If we donât prefeint every stun then we have no damage reduction when it matters most. Warriors ? Just donât leave defensive stance and wait Dampening. Youâll always have the damage red when it matters unless you purposely remove it when youâre in danger which would be stupid. Not to mention that -20% with 100% uptime is way way better than -30% 1/3 of the time and thatâs if we use Feint on CD which, again, would be very stupid. See, itâs easy to say that what the other guy has is better.
Because again, the game isnât made so each class can do everything. Stunning someone 20y away isnât what Warriors are about. So itâs talented. But more on that later.
Like 50% of the slows in the game you mean ? Again, you donât get to have everything other classes have itâs the idea of having different classes.
Lmao. Did you ever play Rogue ? Unless we play Nightstalker, which we donât unless playing Sub with a specific build, and thus letting go of Subterfuge, we have no movement boost in stealth and therefore go at the blazing speed of 115%. A ground mount is 200%. And with Nightstalker we get 20% more %. That is still slower than a mount. If you believe a Rogue goes faster than a mount in stealth, please create a trial char and get information before making that kind of post.
Only useable from stealth on a target out of combat nd wihtout DoTs since it doesnât dispel dots like Paralysis, Polymorh or Freezing Trap. Thatâs two heavy conditions. That means in opener one of your teammates is getting sapped because combat hasnât started yet, and then the Rogue needs to be in stealth (so he needs Vanish which is a 2min cd, and he wonât have it to escape if he uses for that purpose). Sub can sap more thanks to Dance, but then again to do it he needs the enemy he wants to sap to leave combat while being close enough to sap/step sap. But thatâs sub core design just like Mages poly people.
Stealth restriction too. Again, not mentionned. You only mention the good parts and forget the rest, right ?
Nerfed to 1% in PvP combat, not 3%. Unless that was reverted but I donât think so.
Warriorâs mortal strike effect is tied to their main ability, so it makes zero difference whether our poisons can be applied with autoattacks. If a rogue is in melee range he autoattacks and applies poisons. If a Warrior is in melee range he will always use mortal strike and apply his ms too. If you manage not to have 100% uptime on your mf zs a warrior despite it being on the gcd BECAUSE itâs on your MAIN SPELL, and not a thing of its own, Iâm sorry but itâs a you issue.
Oh, and again you forgot to tell the world about Sharpen Blade, increasing your MS to 50% for 6s on a 25s cooldown as well as a damage increase. Thatâs 25% of the time btw.
Also, you said :
Soothing Darkness is Sub only, poisons are Assa only. So youâre comparing all the perks of all Rogue specs to the perks of one Warrior spec ? And you complain about an uneven result ? Is that serious ? If you do it like that add the insane aoe of prot, the healing of fury, the slow removal and speed boost of fury, and so on. Please be consistent. Itâs liâe comparing PALADIN to arms, saying Paladins have Verdict zs Ret and Sacrifice as Holy so itâs unfair they have more tools than arms⌠Not very smart.
Ah, did you also consider that Assa burst cooldown, Vendetta, is limited to one target so when they use a defensive youâre screwed, while an arms warrior can avatar and hit whoever he wants ? I feel like you didnât bother looking into what your class does better ?
They do have a bit more. That being said while your parry and our dodge is similar we do not have the 35% damage reduction during it to avoid dying to attacks that go through. We do have cloak to immune stuff, but we canât reflect for counter pressure. If we cloak a greater pyro or a poly, cool, if you reflect it either you cc someone 8s or you take 35% of their hp away it clearly has itâs advantages on top of having below 25% of cloakâs cooldown. Then you have an aoe fear impossible to dispel unless thereâs a shaman who didnât get feared, and a spell that cuts cc in half that you can drop out of LoS. And a ranged stun as warriors. And your ms cannot be dispelled, and your slow cannot be dispelled. Rogue ms and slows can be dispelled. Howâs that ?
Thatâs the thing youâre right about, Rogues can CC more, thatâs how the class was designed, thatâs the purpose of it, just like Mages cc more than other casters because of poly spam and roots and slows. Do you truly expect having the same cc zs Rogue when youâre not a Rogue, while willing to keep the advantages you have already ? It sounds dumb. Do you also want Divine Shield and Necrotic Strike tied to Mortal Strike, and also maybe Cyclone to be on par with Rets, Dks and Ferals too ? Or maybe said like this you understand how stupid it is ? On the other hand if you want Rogue CC and are willing to give up your advantages then let warriors be warriors and play a Rogue ? Just an idea.
As Assa : the improvement to our slows and ms is a talent. Our damage reduction through Feint, Elusivness, is a talent. Smoke Bomb is a talent. Our only mobility talent is, well, a talent. Subterfuge is a talent.
As Sub : Subterfuge is a talent. Shadowy Duel is a talent. Smoke Bomb is a talent. Soothing Darkness is a talent. Elusivness is a talent. The mobility talent I spoke of as Assa is also a talent here.
Any more questions about talents ?
Lmao youâre the best. Please start thinking rationally. With the armor difference you take 20% less physical damage (give or take, maybe itâs like 18%) but yes we take the same amount of magic damage as armor doesnât work against magic. So youâre more durable against physical attacks. Also, you have Defensive Stance so you have permanently 20% damage reduction that work on both magical and physical, adding that to your armor for physical. Rogues can pick Elusivness talent to reduce damage by 30% for 5s at a medium energy cost on z 15s cd, not usae while in cc. Do a bit of math youâll see warriors mitigate a lot more damage. Also, you have a 100% parry that also reduces damage taken by yet another 35% for spells that go through, or dots on you. As Rogue we have Evasion and no damage reduction tied to it so if something goes through or we have heavy dots, rip. Cloak is better than spell reflect on a single use as itâs a total immunity and clears magic DoTs but for one Cloak CD you have the time for 4 spell reflects and only have 5s remaining cd to your 5th spell reflect. Lets count 4, that is 12s of direct spell attack immunity that also counter pressured or counter ccâed the enemy team. You do have banner to avoid hard cc if well dropped so donât die in a stun like a rogue.
It makes literally no difference as you can have 100% uptime on your kill target. Rogue advantage on the ms, as assa, is that you can apply it on several targets but again it can be dispelled and such on targets youâre not autoattacking.
Rogues do move 15% faster than warriors on foot, stealth or not. Again stealth doesnât give you a speed boost when not playing Nightstalker, which you donât play. And Nightstalker or not and stealth or not a Rogue cannot walk faster than a mount. You can be just below mount speed with sprint which is a cd, and on par/a bit faster with nighstalker + sprint, but sprint is a cd and you donât play Nightstalker in PvP (thereâs a weird Sub build that plays it but well, quite rare and thatâs not what matters, you donât play it to sprint at mount speed lmao).
Rogueâs slow can be dispelled, Warrior slow cannot since itâs physical. Also, Rogues sometimes have to pool energy and donât mindlessly spam stuff, you get back thzt gcd difference when we do that if that eases your pain.
No. It was true for Legion Subtlety Rogue but as of BfA for all Rogue specs we lost all passive dodge talents or passives. Your attacks wonât get dodged just like this as they used to be. Sorry but youâre wrong.
Wrong again. In 3s sub is now playable but far from being best, assa is still above and pushed sub into the 2s bracked to play double dps. And guess what in 2s fury is op as hell. Arms is more of the 3s spec because you can play TSG which is also insane. So you see, Fury has itâs uses. Also on NA ladder there are quite a few Prot Warriors for some reason. Check facts before pressing âsend messageâ.
Iâll just add that the game is made of many classes. Each are made to be unique and bring their own strengths into the comps while having their own weaknesses. In that regard all classes are different, have different tools and are good are doing different thing. If you want all classes to be equal on every field, why make classes ? Go play a game with no classes, everyone has 1 melee spell, 1 ranged spell 1 healing spell 1 defensive and 1 burst cd, and youâll be happy.
Arms is exceptional at sitting and disrupting a caster with low to medium mobilty. Arms is excellent when it comes to training a target and dampen it down slowly with ultra high single target damage and the most powerful mortal strike effect in the game. Arms isnât made to run around, cc people and create set ups. Thatâs what Rogues do. You wanna do this, you roll a Rogueâ same as Arms isnât made to bleed multiple people, kite, heal, come back, cyclone people so they canât be healed, bleed people again, and mf them do death. Thatâs feralâs job. You wanna do this, you play feral, you donât complain that they can do this and you canât. Itâs normal, you play a class, there is a clearly defined playstyle and role in a game, with set advantages and disadvatages, if you donât like what you have roll something you like more.
Justba small edit : sometimes classes are weaker than they should be and should be buffed to be on par. But starting thread because class a is different from class b when they are designed to be different, and then listing their differences without ever mentionning the advantages of class a to conclude ok class b is better⌠Please.
Warriors arenât living their brightest day that is for sure. Assa as a spec is more than fine but I donât think itâs what we should compare to right now. The issue lies in meta specs that terrorize all brackets. Dks and Ww for the melee side of the spectrum have so much damage, so much healing, mobilty (healing for the dk, mobility for the monk, obviously) and so much team and self utility that they just overshadow the rest of the melee specs. To a point that even R1 Rogues start playing Windwalker Mage Rdruid instead of RMP, simply because while the ww doesnât have blind or smoke everything he does he does it better than a Rogue. And he doesnât need blind to force a trinket. Neither does he need Smoke as he can kill through healing.
Every class needs spells back baseline and tuned accordingly, everyone who played past expansions agrees on that I believe.
As for Sub⌠Aside from highlight videos itâs really not that insane for 3s. Playable, yes, good in the meta, not quite yet. Classes these days are usually too tanky to be taken down during a triple Cheap Shot especially with PvE items from CoS. Itâs good in 2s with Fire Mage or Ret Pzlz in though, Sap Blind trinket duel trinket then stun while the ret or the mage kills someone, works okay.
That being said when I queued my disc around 2k and that rogue around 2k2 I saw more fury warriors than rogues and arms together, around 2k4 mmr on another rogue during last week we did fight a seemingly equal amount. That was in 2s. In 3s it seems they were replaced by DHs or WWs⌠Shame.
At least rets can be kited and arenât chasing people all over the map like dk zoo or ww or manaburnbot dh so itâs actually possible to so something against their burstâŚ
The thing about DK zoo is that, they summon their pets, and you can CC the DK all you want, the cooldown is in the pets themselves, the pets will deal damage no matter how slowed or CCed the DK is, similar to the BM hunter but on a more dangerous scale.
As any other class except BM & Demo, if you begin your burst, you can get stopped, sloweed, CCed, but DKs? noooo, damage charts of the roof and slow worse than ever. Whoever thought that 70% slow at all times for DKs is fine, I think they should reconsider itâŚ
The very best part is, in theory the best defence against such an attack would be a mass CC, like you can fear Hunter, fear pet and fear Basilisk with one Psychic Scream or Inimidating Shout, you can fear Warlock + tyrant + felguard + a couple pets. But dk zoo is fear immune. Cool.
Rogue is a class that always has evasion. Itâs so strong that they can dodge the pruning with it. Quite fascinating, isnât it?
Rogue most definitely is the least pruned class in the game, and it shows. Nice that more and more people catch up to it as time passes⌠but I was ridiculed when I made similar points, kek.
THAT BEING SAID, at NO CIRCUMSTANCE should they be pruned. ABSOLUTELY NOT. They should be seen as an example how to deal with the other classes: UNPRUNE THEM. Please⌠for the love of god.
Warrior needs more utility 100% agree but also stupid designs like 3 sec spell immunity with Spell Reflect needs to go. Maybe make Spell Reflect dispelable? You can dispel Nether Ward or destroy Grounding but this is really annoying. Imagine being caster having to juke kick, tank Stormbolt, juke Spell Reflect and sometimes even tank Fear while being hit by mongoloid healing reducing Warrior. What warrior needs back is old Stances to make it a bit more complicated than 4 button mongo fury, give back Intervene and maybe give back Throwdown (turning into Stormbolt with a talent). Iâd also make Rend back as a default spell on arms.
Just make it counterable like in the past. If I was aware enough I could cast a spell that has no cd to cast big spell later. In the current state itâs cancer.
Stop your bets - itâs not an auction who gives more. Assa and WW are viable and strong in the current meta and Arms is garbage. Fury is pure mongo and even if itâs viable most of Warriors who achieved anything in the past donât want to play it as itâs not fun.
Both warrior specs need reworks. Fury needs any depth as itâs basically the most braindead spec in the game and Arms needs utility and probably (some survivability). Maybe they should add some damage reduction component to Arms mastery like they did with destru but not as strong. I donât want to fight another unkillable meele but a small damage reduction component (considering no PvE items like we have to deal with right now) would be fine.
