If arm is not good as always. why blizz do not change it ASP ? we had 9.1.5 and arm got another nerf. maybe gameplay has been changed and people should try out and find solutions for it ? another nerf coming for port in 8.2 too. why blizz won’t stop nerfing warriors? why pala is op and do not get nerf for 8.2 or any other patch?
As unfortunate as it may be, in today’s age the best way to play a class/spec has already been determined by theorycrafters and high end players before it even hits live. It’s only rarely that something is discovered to be better throughout a patch.
I believe that the problem lies in the warriors’ utility in PvP, M+ and Raids. In general, you are going to get invited as a Rogue, as a DK or Monk, but not warriors, Warriors have to struggle to even join a +10 without guilds or friend groups. We bring almost nothing to the table. We have 1 fear on 1.5min cd which breaks incredibly fast. We have piercing howl on fury and that’s it. Rallying Cry is powerful but not quite.
Especially when you conveniently forget the advantages of the class you compare Rogue with.
Being sad about Warriot state and comparing it with Rogues, a class that performs okay, is one thing. Trying to do it with Windwalker when there are far more windwalkers in comps that win than Rogues, to the point that even whaaz stopped playing RMD but plays Windwalker Frost Resto instead because the Monk does everything better than the Rogue in the comp, is not the smartest move.
Bladestorm is a utility aswell, for example bladestorm a rogue mage go when you are aware of a smokebomb so you dont need to trinket.
You MS effect is also good with SB.
Wearing Plate, as soon as you need to go defensive you can use Defensive stance and it lasts for as long as you need it.
TO the Rogue, ive never seen a rogue in stealth beeing faster than mounted, after Burst of Speed has been removed.
Sap is actually only usable in stealth subteruge or shadowdance and only on targets out of combat, also costs energy.
Why is Blind harder to remove than fear? Blind breaks on any dmg, aoe fear you can do some dmg until it breaks. Ofc there is Will of the forsaken, counters Fear effects, but its an actual cooldown you use then. Imagine beeing able to get out of stuns every minute when the other class relys on stuns to kill.
Evasion, well, stormbolt it or shadowstep kidney it or stun from behind. Its a dodge just like dbts we can get hit from behind or not dodge/parry while stunned.
Feint actually costs energy and has no use when we dont take elusiveness, so cheat death falls out of choice(6 Minute cooldown aswell and uncontrollable)
Vanish, sometimes needs use with cloak but we still can get out of stealth with bleeds up for example.
Chrimson val, also costs energy.
Smoothing Darkness, well you usually take elusiveness 99% of the time.
As Rogue you take more dmg than a warrior.
Mortal Wounds may be on mortalstrike cd, but have actually a 100% uptime, except if you swap targets instantly after you ms your ex target…
Both class walks actually as fast as the other. Waste of sprint will make you die without beeing able to escape. To escape from a fight you need a allie to shadowstep to or have sprint with the pvp talent to get away. Except you have vanish ready ofc.
Mortal Wounds require you to use wound poison, you loose good dmg cause not beeing able to use Deadly Poison.
- Im pretty sure fury warrior is also what you call “viable”
to sum up, i know arms warrior isnt actually in the best state, but dont make rogues like they are the goddess of everything, while doing 15k dps beeing able to smash your utility.
Rogues abilities need a good amount of energy, and out of vendetta for example as assa, you pretty much starve on this ressource. Using Sap, chrimson val, kidney (+ combo points), cheap shot etc costs al energy.
Warriors mostly uses their gcd for things.
But as i said, warrior actually needs some love/tuning. But its not the right way to prune other classes. What this game lacks at the moment is playmaking in arena, its pveing dampening and winning on the dmg/healing meters mostly.
Even 2s isnt the best reference, but since it relies on the class alone we gonna take it.
Theres a reason that our top tier dps classes in 2vs2 are atm:
sv hunter, dh, unholy dk, destro locks
followed by: ww monk, feral
after that you have assa rogue, fury, ret etc.
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We have to concede that Rogues do have a passive 15% boost to their movement speed tough.
Rest is truth.
Oh i missed on that actually ![:smiley:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
But its still not even close to mount speed ;D
Yes, what I meant is that out of 100 attempts of arena starts, the rogue will sap you 95/100 times at least. And if the rogue ever manages to re-enter stealth, which happens fairly often depending on the enemy class/spec, he/she will 100% sap you before you move 5-10y on your mount, stopping you from drinking mana, recovering health, or stopping any tricks you have in mind.
Don’t get me wrong, I like this dirty style of the rogue, removing it will take away the fun. However, as I suggested previously in this thread, making Sap a 5~ second cooldown will change the way the rogue will use it. It will require more skill and timing. It will take you to a moment where you have to choose who to sap.
Yeah it’s far. Maybe wity Sprint + Nightstalker you reach mount speed for 7s at the cost of Sprint CD + Subterfuge talent, but hey, why do that ?
No, just hit his teammates so you do not leave combat.
If a healer drinks just close to a Rogue it’s a mistake since the rogue can vanish sap. The healer should drink far to have time to move and cast an instant if the rogue vanishes to sap. And it’s a 2min cd. So if he uses vanish to come sap and your team doesnlt fall for it he basically traded a 2min cd, being his most versatile spell, to stop a drink but without the 8s cc. After that you can go drink in peace for 2 mins.
Just don’t let rogues leave combat unless they vanish, and when they do, stay in combat with their team.
Correct, in this case.
How about when both team mates, Rogue + Healer/dps or a 3v3 team with a rogue all play perfectly? The rogue will always sap at least one of the enemies.
In the opener of course. After, never if you play just as perfectly. Unless he’s sub, uses dance and saps after a poly (so half a sap) or a blind or a fear behind a pillar if the target had 0 dots but that spec is made around cc and isn’t very great damage wise even after buffs, or is assa/outlaw and uses vanish to sap off a blind or sheep or fear (still if no dots) but then it’s a 2min cd.
My never was more “he will never just restealth sap unless your team plays very wrong”. While he might catch a restealth your whole team should then never leave combat.
I also think assa preassure outside of vendetta is pretty low if you wouldnt have wound poison and the cc. Youd get outpreassured in 2s by everything.
In 2s as Assa you already get out pressured by DKs, WWs, SV hunters (because bleed dispel + root that makes you miss attacks if they need to tempo + trap every 30s on healer) for the melee part, Rets are surprisingly good against Assa too (sanc on healer, bop on blind/vendetta, brutal damage that a Rogue cannot tank like a DK, poison dispel on a 8s cd, etc). Casters… It depends, good Elementals usually have better pressure, Destro too depending on the map, same deal with sp. Like sp/destro is easy win for Assa on a map with big pillars because either you reset or your healer drinks, but Lordaeron is annoying and they ends up pressuring more.
Honorable mention to warriors. In 2s Arms 50% wound can cut the deal if they play full defensive with a pack spirit boy or wity an elusive resto druid, and fury in 2s is insanely good and has a pressure on rogues only told in legends as you can never kite never slow, but he can.
I’m not going to comment on the specifics of the OP or the people arguing with me, my question is far more simple?
Is anybody here willing to say that “Yes, arms as a spec is on par in competitiveness and enjoyability to (insert rogue spec here)”.
Probably not.
Arms is a tragedy of a spec- It has been, really, since Legion. It’s great for one week occasionally afterwhich they have to nerf it- Because, surprise surprise, the only thing arms warrior really has (significantly) going for it is raw pressure and damage. And that is really hard to balance properly without crippling the spec.
Warrior is probably the most pruned class since MoP alongside Druid & Hunter. Warrior used to be about more things than just damage pressure. In fact, it used to be a bit of everything, like the rogue class is atm. Not the best at CC, not the best at mobility, not the best at burst, but it had a little bit of everything, alongside it’s continued pressure.
Now all that is gone and all we got is really continued pressure.
It’s really cursed & tragic.
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In 2vs2 Assa rogue (with holy pally) is probably on par with fury warrior (with rdruid) and arms beeing worse.
In 3s as rogue you have rmd or rmpala as top tier comb, as Warrior you only probably have tsg to play as actual good comb.
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SV Hunter usually wins against assa if you dont make the plays as rogue with good setups and right choices. Winning on dmg/pveing no chance
Against Dk you probably need to do healer swaps with step kidney in order to win. Dk doesnt die without deep damp and you loose in dampening. His able to let his heal drink with 70% slow and your healer wont drink with right pet management.
WW is annoying cause you need to play devensive, mostly against rdruid swap with stun on him. FoK his FoF, go back to force healer into a bad position. And ofc dont get double legsweeped
2s is disgusting to play anyways
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Maybe it doesn’t look like it but I do know what to do already. Thanks still ![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
I was simply stating bad match-ups, ans that happen to be match-ups against all played melees at the moment. Because as you stated, for example with the SV the Rogue needs to make some plays but an equally skilled hunter will make some too and if that happens he’s the one winning. Same with DK, the best way to win is indeed a right kidney on healer. But sadly that only works against bad players, a good resto druid will just max range the DK to heal from 40y so that the Rogue can never step without walking to the druid slowed by 70% giving the druid all the time in the world to get away, hot up and bear. If that’s a Shaman he can just wolf it, and a pala, well, since the goes of the rogue on him will be rare if he plays max range when the rogue has step and kidney ready he can just bop it if there’s any real danger. As for the Monk, FoF the fists to keep generating combo, or even reapplying Garrote is cool, but the guy in fists has 25k dps so it’s not quite cutting the deal. And then again, forcing a good ww rdruid into a bad position is extremely hard because if they ever need repositionning with their crazy mobility the monk can just apply a physical root on the rogue that cannot be dispelled and kite. Or FoF just to slow by 90% and let his Druid get away. The only detail that makes a Rogue win those classes is when the Rogue team is significatively better than the opposing team in terms of wow level and class mastery. The fact is that currently DKs and WWs are facerolling their way up the ladder and as time goes the good ones go up and up and the pve ones remain 2k-2k4 and that allows other melee classes to win them because they are bad players and don’t play the real strategy, don’t use the root on the rogue, don’t spam chains when it’s needed, throw random grips, etc. They hope to kill with their brutal damage ans survive with their tools but don’t think outside of that.
What I said about Survival mostly applies to Assa/Feral as they have the bleed dispel, but what DK and WW can do to Rogues they can do to any other melee. Match ups are one sided there just because they are better melees on almost every aspect.
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Arms doesn’t really have tsg even anymore. DK’s prefer twd as WW is much stronger than arms.
There is no viable comp in which arms is the best pick anymore. WW, DK and DH to an extend are totally oppressive. It’s sad…
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The problem here is that blizzard touched and pruned arms spec so much that the whole spec feels like a soldier unit from warcraft. You just go to your enemy and start auto hitting and die few seconds later without a chance to do any counter attack or a good move unlike in cata or mop.
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