No.
They where not.
They took long because of lock outs and barely any coverage on raids, plus guilds didnt share tacts and what not.
Most of it was done blind too.
So if a raid took 10 weeks to clear, thats 10 attempts per week.
Hate to burst your bubble.
I believe it had a lot more to do with having to get 40 people back in vanilla. This is a logistical nightmare.
Even in TBC/Wrath where I was also one of the raiders, it was a huge pain to get exactly the numbers of people needed for the raid. There was a good chance or having fewer people of having to bench the extras
Flexible raid sizes were a huge game changer
So obviously difficulty is subjective but vault of incarnates normal is pretty darn easy I canât speak for heroic in itâs entirety only done 3/8 hc so far.
I will agree what I enjoyed about classic wow raiding was it was just chill and we spent more time just chatting and having fun then everyone shush and focus.
From my PoV, Normal Vault is the easiest raid in ages.
Same I think Emerald nightmare in legion which was considered faceroll easy back then is harder than Vaults
Vault on the first 7 bosses seems to have much more intuitive mechanic that can be learned on the go. Only Raszageth seems to have a learning curve.
My casual guild oneshoted the normal broodkeeper on the first attempt (we had some experienced people but the gimmicks that need to be done, do not have to be known by everyone)
WellâŚ
Vanilla is the ONLY wow that had 40 man raids to begin with.
And no, yet again, iit wasnt because of that cause TBC and wrath raids also took âlongâ to completeâ, which once again, is due to the fact you had lockouts during those three expansions.
Both limited in attemps per week AND sharing weekly lockout with the other version (10 man shared with 25)
So thereâs that.
And again, thereâ wasnt really coverage on the raids it self and no ptr testing for the raids too.
I do recall that during the ICC raid they had to forcefully slow down the hardcore raiders by not releasing the entire raid at once (yes there were also the limited attempts).
SWP also had a staggered release that I think was depending on the non raiders too
Preach is a moron and his low IQ opinions have been terrible for the WoW community ever since he started vomiting them out in public.
We donât need borrowed power because we now have access to multiple talents that would have previously been locked on the same row as other choices.
WoW rotations are not complex. If you want to see a complex rotation, check out a Guild Wars 2 build guide. Last time I checked they had something like 30+ steps before repeating.
If youâre bad at WoW there are a multitude of addons and WeakAuras available to assist you and thereâs absolutely nothing wrong with utilising them as much as you need. A UI tailored for your own personal needs should not be under estimated in increasing your âpower levelâ.
Vault of the Incarnated on normal mode has like two mechanics per boss, which admittedly is double the amount they had in vanilla so I guess you could claim theyâre twice as hard but in actual reality theyâre very simple. If youâre struggling with them, perhaps raiding was never for you and pet battles are more your speed.
Is mythic hard? yes. Should it be? yes.
Imho, normal and heroic are the easiest raid tiers weâve had in a while. Sure broodkeeper can be abit of a pain but other than that it ainât that bad. Not to mention Sylvanas HC was way harder than Raszageth is.
That has to be one of my pet peeves in this gameâŚpeople complaining about things that have literally no effect on them and dont concern them at all!
Personally as a very casual LFR player I kinda stopped doing them when the sets became very raid central and we lost out on class sets. Im only there for the mogs and a possible mount drop so if you take that away then Im gonna do it once maybe to see then never again!
And there were almost no videos, or streams, or most of the ressources that we have available nowadays. Most (progressions) guilds expect from their players to know whatâs up, even before stepping foot into the raid.
We often here how hardcore and time consuming raiding in vanilla-tbc-wrath was, but I feel itâs actually the opposite. Or at least, the amount of prep time that was expected would actually be spent playing the game or your main.
Iâm not sure if raids were made harder because players became way more prepared and helped (builds, logs, sims, weakauras, etc) , or if itâs the other way around (help became needed because of the difficutly), but it sure feels different now.
Also, the I feel that the raiding community changed a lot. Most of us had never heard of split runs, day raiding, having alts ready in case some encounters requires a different setup. Not saying it wasnât a thing, but I feel it was WAY less common. Raiding feels way more serious nowadays, almost as if it doesnât really belong in the same game anymore.
Maybe itâs because we had nothing else to do back then, idk. Now it kinda feels exclusive to the âtrve kult god-like playersâ.
Because it was awful. No one wants to keep grinding the same things over and over for a chance to get an item with a higher item level. No one wants to sacrifice an item with good stats for an item with bad stats but more ilvl. No one wants to use items with good stats while the high ilvl titanforge goes to waste in their bags because the stars are bad.
Titanforging is bad.
The mechincal creep in specc design is a issue that very few people talk about. All speccs have had a mechical creep over the years even the so called noob speccs like BM hunter. WoW is a live service game so they need to update the speccs every once in a while but i think they have gone about it the wrong way.
If you compare it to a game like League of Legends, in 2010 they had champions like Garen that was considered exremly basic and over the years with newer champions having a mechnical creep but garen 12 years later is still the same old basic Champion that he was in 2010 and he still has a very high pick rate. I think this shows as the general playerbase gets beter people want more mechanical copmplex gameplay but this doesnt remove the desire for simpler gameplay it doesnt move the acceptable character design more towards complexity but it rather stretches it.
I think this can also be seen when WotLK classic launched, there was alot of praise for the class design from the classic comunity. I remeber loving ret pala back in WotLK and i tried it out in classic and it wasnt nostalgia, it relly felt great, yes ut faceroll but every ability has so much weight behind it.
I think another example of blizzards current design turning players away is looking at hunter population since WoD. Blizzard wanted to rework hunters in WoD since they considered their design outdated but they did not have time so they reworked them in Legion instead. All throughout WoD Hunters had around 20% of all dps logs. But when the legion rework came and they modernized the speccs they dropped to 16% over night, and for the next 3 years they steadly dropped until they were 11% in AEP. They had some periods where they get their popularity back mainly when they were the tops dps in raids m+ and top pick for arenas in 8.3 and when they got the first raid legendary since Cata in SoD. But they are now back down to 13% again and will most likley continue to drop. So i think its worth asking if somehting is wrong with the modern deisng if it causes a class to lose 25-50% popularity if they are modernized.
I think some blizzard devs being close to the theory crafters of their speccs is both a blessing and a curse. I think theiry crafters are a great source for feedback since they wil know all the ins and the outs and all the wierd little quirks of the specc but i lso think many of them are awful at game design. Having listen to alot of them when they speak of class design i htink they are very out of touch with just how trash the average player is, and they often seem to push for just more mechanics and restirctions to that increases the skill celling and skill floor. Looking at rogue for example its abusrd how much mechanical creep that class has had, just comparing Sin rogues from BfA to DF is ridiculus. Since WoD Outlaw has seen something lik 80-100% increase in buttons just to use for your rotation. THe things is that it isnt all bad i currently main rogue i think there is alot of great things with all the speccs but i think there is a bad case of mechanical and ability bloat.
As far as i know there is only 2 figths that had limited attempts Ra Den in MoP and Algalon the Observer in Ulduar WOTLK. Also there was TOTC in WOTLK were you had limited attempts to claer it to get a mount before it was removed . No other raids have had this none in Classic or TBC .
Came with last patch going from WOTLK into Cata.
If you are to talk about raids please look up facts.
Could not agree more. Creating content for the low % is bad.
The endgame in every mmorpg, is Tmog. Blizzard is keeping the cool tmog behind mythic raid or elite PVP.
Best option imo, would to remove mythic raid. Keep LFR, N and HC.
Would they clear it day 1, Yes, but most people really dont care.
Also i do raid mythic raids. Is it fun? Not at all. one dude keep failing and you wasted one night.
Yeah SUPER fun.
You can never get time back.
Itâs a community problem.
Look at classic, with raids so easy your grandma could do it.
Min maxing, speedrunning and parsing is even more heavily enforced by groups and guilds in that game.
Itâs simply due to how powerful addons have become, to stay challenging, the devs have to increase difficulty and increase the amount of mechanics.
Personally i dont really enjoy the raiding itself, but i do have fun running it with my guild.
To me XIVâs raiding are so much superior 8 man and straight to the boss fight.
I think the mechincal creep in speccs is one of WoWs biggest problems right now. Ever specc has had mechical creep over the years, DHs went from being reletivly easy mode to stacking a bunch of short buffs for big burst windows and even the so called noob speccs like BM hunter has seen a mechanical creep aswell.
While you need to update every speccs once in a while i htink they are going about it the wrong way. If you look at League of Legends, in 2010 they had champions like Garen that was considered easy and basic and over the years LoL has had a mechanical creep but Garen is still there with the same Kit and is now considered exremly basic but he still sees a high pick rate.
Similarly when WotLK classic laucnhed there was alot of praise for how good the classes felt. I loved Ret pala in WotLK and i tried it again now on classic and it felt great, yes its easy but it still feels great to play.
The general playerrbase gets beter over time and do enjoy more complex playstyles but they dont stop enjoying the easier playstyles, the widow for acceptable playstyles stretches it does not move.
I think another example of this is the popularity of Hunters from WoD and onwards. Blizzard wanted to reowrk hunters in WoD since they considerd them outdated but did not have the time so they got reworked in Legion instead. Throughout WoD Hunters was about 20% of all DPS logs and when the Legion rework came and they modernized the classes they dropped to 16% of all dps logs over night. For the next 3 years they continued to drop in popularity until they reached 11% in AEP. They managed to see popularity boost in 8.3 when they were beyond broken and in SoD when they got the first raid legedary since Cata but they have now gone back down again in 13% in DF i imagine they will continue to drop. So i think its worth asking why you lose 25-50% populairy of a class when it is modernized.
I think the close relationship between specc theorycrafters and Class designers are a blssing and a curse. Theory crafters knows all the ins and outs and little quirks of a specc and are a great source for information but after having listen to their class design feedback i must say they are awful at class design. They often advocate for more plates to spin increase skill floors and cellings more button bloat. I think Rogues are a clear example of this, since WoD Outlaw has seen an increase in rotational abilities of around 80-100%. And looking at Sin rogues and just comparing them to their BfA counterpart is absurd, Alot of the stuff they have added to speccs over the years is great but its like they are unable to tighten up the classes and just keep piling things ontop of them.
Yeah, thatâs what Iâm wondering. itâs still a bit unclear to me right now.
I donât know exactly when the shift happened. Like, I remember having Power Aura in TBC (or was it Wrath?). But it wasnât as powerful as WeakauraâŚ
Or there was this adddon, whose name I have forgotten, that could predict where aoe damages will fall on the ground, making some fights so easy that Blizzard had to turn it off.
I feel that these community aspects we see in classic is just the retail way (or just the current way of gaming?) transposed there.
The current way of gaming would also include things like streams, watchability, and esport. Weâve seen how important those things are to marketing in gaming, and of course the game had to change for it to work as streamable content.
Sums it up pretty well.
Shutting down the addon api to just allow convenience addons would be a good start.
So, things like Altoholic, different looking Actionbars or addons similar to this would be allowed, but addons like Weakauras, Boss Mods or HHTD would be banned.
And Blizzard really needs to stop creating raids to keep the âRWF happyâ. Just go back to where the fun was. Raids for PuG and Raids for Guilds. Not 4 difficulties but 1 for the majority and one for the other 40%.