Asmongold is right RWF is ruining WoW

[Gorrak-nethergarde-keep]

@Zhujiang-mograine

Look at the massive success Classic WoW and Classic TBC WoW had.

Both dead after 3 months. Great success.

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

@Punyelf-draenor

Blizzard is trying to cater to a lot of different types of player and has experimented with PvP vs PvE over the years

By trying to cater to a lot of different types of players, Blizzard ends up pleasing none. Choice is theirs to make.

@Punyelf-draenor

I will always prefer when they are separate. Some players will prefer not having to have separate gear sets and progression. I don’t think one is more valid than the other, one is not right or the other wrong. It’s just different preferences.

I do prefer separate gear progression too and I wish it stayed this way. We should be getting answer in a couple of weeks anyways.

@Seluniel-nordrassil

If WoW is to become addon-independent it will require a radical revamp that even in the best of cases will turn off a lot of existing people.

WOW has always been designed around the idea that addons would “complete” the game. So yeah, chucking off addons means Blizzard should be making wow 2 instead.

@Blumes-argent-dawn

All the DBM and weakauras make them design raids around them, expecting players will get a pop up on screen of what to do.

I think Blizzard devs should just give up trying to fight addons. It’s a waste of time.

[Bedezee-scarshield-legion (Bedezee)]

That’s connected to the difficulty. I use to PuG raids and it would go ok because the mechanic’s were usually pretty simple to explain. At some point it just got out of hand and now - as you say - raiding is only enjoyable with a regular, scheduled group.

If it was simpler PuG’s would be enjoyable again.

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Orisanct-silvermoon

WoW isn’t designed around time management. You can play it whenever you want to, outside of raids. The only other content that required some planning was when doing CMs without pugging but that was only matching times of 5 people. Not 20.

It was. Look at WoW Classic/TBC. Leveling a single character requires full 8 days without break. My recent Horde Alt I leveled up in around 1 day, 16h… Which is already damn fast compared to earlier. Most Content of the game in Retail is today waaaaaaay easier to accomplish than it would have been to Classic/TBC times.

You and others are basically getting it easier compared to before. Raiding LFR and Normal Difficulty is for regular players like you. Heroic for the more dedicated. Mythic is for the players that invest most of their life into this game, which play in Endgame focused Guilds. Basicallly for the Top 5% at least. If you and me don’t want invest that much time for Raids (which can include getting out of the comfort zone and perhaps raid at an unreasonable time) then we simply don’t play those Raids. If we are not willing to grind, min/max and dedicate a lot of time to it to find also people fitting for the difficulty, people like you and me should simply not be there.

And if you want to Raid on Mythic but not invest the time for the grind, min/maxing and finding people, then how about this: Wait for the next expansion so that those Heroic/Mythic Raids become easier and LFR/Normal become solo-able. Or perhaps wait even longer and wait for them to become Legacy content.

@Gadinka-lightbringer

I’m free to ask the game to cater to me as much as you’re free to claim it shouldn’t.

Sure you are. If it is in a reasonable framework of feedback. But let me make a not-WoW example of what you people ask for:

“I would like to play Dark Souls but the game is too hard for me. Make it easier to play!”

That’s your stance. That’s your opinions basis. At least as it looks to me.

@Gadinka-lightbringer

Also stop insinuating stuff about people’s lives, it detracts from your argument and it doesn’t help discussing with you. I didn’t say my life is “full” of planning etc., I said I already do enough of it. There’s a difference.

Ok, then maybe you are the exception here for once but others aren’t. And usually a normal (,not addicted) human being would drop the game and don’t play it if they have not the time for it.

To quote on a Reddit Post I found pretty quickly regarding that topic:

About two years ago I got back playing MMOs and I always loved them but recently I’m realizing that MMO’s, although fun and even instructive, demands a lot of hours of our time so we can reach a level where we can actually enjoy most features of a game and with that I feel like I’m wasting a big part of my life that I could be using to learn new stuff, read new books and develop new skills and knowledge.

With work and living with my GF I end up not having much free time and it makes me spend much of my free time playing and not doing other things I could do as well. I really love MMO’s, mainly the immersive ones. It is something that really gives me much joy but recently I’m felling bad about myself when I play because I feel I could be doing more useful things with that time.

Once I read an article about a guy saying how to keep playing games and manage to have a job and a family and his article was quite reasonable but he said that we should quit MMO’s for they demand way to much time and that’s quite what I’ve been realizing now. I really doesn’t wanna quit playing MMO’s since it’s something that gives me such joy but they might be taking a big part of my life away. Sometimes I’m pretty sure I’m having addiction problems but all I read about gaming addiction doesn’t seem to fit my profile (like not keeping my responsibilities) it’s just fells like I could be doing something better with the time I put on MMO’s or general games. Does anyone have any suggestion or advice for me ? Or faced it too ? Should I quit the MMO’s ? Anyone thought like that before ?
Source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/dixf2q/time_management_and_mmorpgs/

And below in the comments:

I hate to break it to you, but this is true of all videogames, in fact just about all leisure activities. If you think about life in those terms you’ll probably end up very unhappy.

It’s entirely possible to play an MMO casually. You won’t be the most geared, biggest badass on the server, but again this is true of everything - if you decide you’ll just play one game of Dota 2 every day instead, it’s highly doubtful you’re ever going to be a tournament tier player. Everything we do is a time sink in its own way.

Raids are fine as they are. You don’t need to be the “best player in the game” unless you really want it yourself. If Raids are too hard for you? Fine, don’t play them. You don’t have to. Raids are too time consuming? That’s also fine. Take either your time or look for other content more suited for your available time to play. But don’t ask again and again for changes in a game that are not needed.

Additionally, I think Daestra and Mirianea put it also pretty well together:

@Daestra-turalyon

I disagree i think you are right normal is very easy and in a good spot for social and fun guilds and even pugs . Problem is the player base expects everything to be one shotable is that a word ? and it should not be.
My guild is on Anduin heroic later today and i am looking forward to some fun. I was so surprised how easy Jailer normal was being honest had a great time jumping into holes and the defile

@Mirianea-outland

Raid are not “hard”, in my opinion problem is they are “too complex”. What preventing many casual players to gear up and just jump into game without studding tactics.
For example in many games if fight is complex you have tips “on air” or boss using spells in way you can deduce what he doing and avoid during fight.

In WoW, raids are builded in way preventing players to just jump into fight and have fun from raid.
LFR should be literally learning mode with many arrows and tips like, move here, avoid this, soak this, run for your life etc.
However mythic shouldn’t be possible for ordinary players and only for HC players.
Learning mode in lfr could make raids more available for casuals and put life in lfr.

That Raids are “too hard” is not right. Many players completed them. They are meant to be that way. However that a Raid is “too complex” is a whole different story. One I can agree on, since I played many Raids in Destiny Games and a few in Final Fantasy 14. Those 2 games have their raids more designed simplistic or more with visible, intuitive mechanics.

WoW doesn’t do either of those most of the time, especially with the Visibility of AoE and Attacks.

[Chillram-argent-dawn]

Raids are not getting harder overall.
Just last raid rwf players were complaining about how easy was the raid between Painsmith and Sylvanas.
Nathria had a normal difficulty curve.
This raid was kinda of an anomaly, difficulty wise.
The later bosses were only barely killable without second leggo. Halondrus was a very hard boss too.

In the end the difficulty on wf mythic raiding is irrelevant for the rest of the playerbase. Bosses get nerfed and when the more casual guide get there will be infinetly easier.

Normal and heroic may have seemed harder than usual cause we got tier sets this time around, so they had to tune bosses a bit harder, so they don’t become cakewalk with tier sets (most did anyway).

But for week one raiding, normal was perfectly fine. Anduin was the only hard one really. Rest of the raid is a joke on normal, even the last three bosses. Any decent group would be able to clear the first 7.

I wouldn’t consider Asmongold’s toxic pugging a standard for a decent group.

[Korikasai-mirage-raceway]

Not done any raids since nighthold, the sooner they die the better.

The game needs to move away from “Needs to know mechs” content and move towards more mindless type of content like M+.

I’ll never step another foot into a raid until they have been made much easier.

LFR is a thing i know, but just low key M+ gives higher ilvl, it’s just not worth the time.

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

The game needs to move away from “Needs to know mechs” content and move towards more mindless type of content like M+.

You are away that even M+ has mechanics that need to be known? Would gladly like to see you try “mindless” Tazavesh on high Key levels

[Korikasai-mirage-raceway]

Yeah, never going to do any of the “Mega dungeons”.

Mechagon was not too bad, But not going to attempt this market thing.

Most of the standard Dungeons are extremly simple tho, Not like in raids where you need 10-20 min video per boss and if you fail every one dies.

There are some exceptions ofc, like the guessing games in the hard to spell dungeon, But you can just ignore the dungeons which has “difficult” mechs and still get vault in the week.

Ofc only talking about 15 or below, since there is no reason to do higher

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

Not like in raids where you need 10-20 min video per boss and if you fail every one dies.

I did the first 3 bosses of Sepulcher without having to watch any video.

There are enough reliable sources for info:

• Adventurer Guide
• Your fellow Players
• Guide Groups

Also, there are several ways to communicate for tactics in WoW:

• Text chat
• Ingame Voice Chat
• Discord
• Teamspeak 3

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

There are some exceptions ofc, like the guessing games in the hard to spell dungeon, But you can just ignore the dungeons which has “difficult” mechs and still get vault in the week.

And that is ok. However, I don’t think Raids should be watered down for the players that neither dedicated nor willing to learn the Raids.

[Korikasai-mirage-raceway]

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

And that is ok. However, I don’t think Raids should be watered down for the players that neither dedicated nor willing to learn the Raids.

Just make two different ways to do the raids, Same rewards ofc, no difference there.

But one can be hard and one can be fast and easy.

Those who like hard, can spend hours on that, and those who want easy and fast can do that.

again, No extra incentive to do the hard one, Just for people who want hard content

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

Those who like hard, can spend hours on that, and those who want easy and fast can do that.

Sorry, but that is a idea. If the rewards are exactly the same, people will NEVER play the hard mode.

That’s called by devs “way of lowest resistance”.

Here, read that article:

https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2019/04/08/daily-reaction-video-game-exploits-cheats/

I also will pull some quotes from it…

Here’s the thing about gamers: They will always take the path of least resistance. Look at Trophy hunters. They are searching for farming methods and the easiest, quickest ways to earn Trophies. Trophy guides often include a roadmap, which is a general guide on how to play the game to achieve the Platinum is as short a time as possible. Cheeses, exploits, farming methods. These things are all a part of the gaming experience. Challenge is too, but taking the path of least resistance will always show itself.

Look, for example, at Riven, the final boss fight of Destiny 2: Forsaken’s Last Wish Raid. There’s a legit way to do that fight. It’s tough and requires a lot of coordination, communication, and memory among six people. Or, there’s the easy way, where you maximize damage output and shoot a whole bunch of rockets into the wish dragon’s mouth, burning her down until she’s dead. I’m proud to say that we did the fight legit for our first clear, but in every Raid we’ve run since then? Path of least resistance. In a game like Destiny that’s all about farming the endgame, why do the fight legit when we can save time and get a sure clear using the rocket cheese? In fact, that’s what much of Destiny is about and part of the fun of it. Finding the easiest way to accomplish something is actually a part of the experience. Taking something tough and making it trivial, through whatever means available, is empowering.

Side comment here. I play Destiny 2 since it came out. I never played once Riven in the Last Wish Raid in a legit way. Literally all players use the exploit/cheese/however-you-want-to-name-it to finish the Raid fast. And even Bungie, the Devs of the Game, admitted they will not remove the other exploits because the Raid is too hard for the average player. The World First Race took around 24h for that Raid, while every other Raid was done within 8h at WF race.

[Korikasai-mirage-raceway]

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

Sorry, but that is a idea. If the rewards are exactly the same, people will NEVER play the hard mode.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

The people who want to do hard content can do that.

Those who want fast and easy can do that.

and as you say, Noone wants hard content unless they are forced to do hard content, Just proving my point, More people want fast & easy content.

So why waste time developing or releasing hard content?

[Plzrage-ravencrest]

I would. Purely because he gets under Blizzards skin.

Hate the guy all you like, he hits home when he smacks the bat at blizzard and they don’t like it because of that reason.

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Maybe to you. But I have talked to Developers before and it is factual a bad idea from the Developer Perspective.

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

So why waste time developing or releasing hard content?

For a number of Reasons:

• Higher Difficulty = harder to get (done) = more Player Prestige
• Players in (MMO)RPGs want Stuff to brag about
• Higher Difficulty means more time the player has to invest, ultimatively extending playtime to prevent a content drought for those hardcore players
• Certain Players need/want a minimum requirement for challenge. Otherwise the game will lose them more and more.

If you want more “in detail” points, you can read this article too:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-we-love-the-games-that-enrage-us-most/

[Korikasai-mirage-raceway]

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

• Higher Difficulty = harder to get (done) = more Player Prestige
• Players in (MMO)RPGs want Stuff to brag about

At least nowdays they are adding more and more things to cash shops, So that every one has access to the items.

Which is a good thing imo.

Don’t have any problems with hard content as long as the rewards are availables just from swiping the CC as well.

But would be nice with an easy version to actually see the bosses as well, People are just extremly stupid or outright afk in LFR and makes it just not enjoyable imo.

[Weffi-silvermoon]

biggest problem with raids are not only how complex the bosses can be, but also that there is no real linear way to gear up.
now normal raid should be a way to gear up for heroic raid, and heroic raid is where you gear up for mythic raids.
but this is not the case, due to how low number of items drop, bosses beeing locked for 7 days once killed.
you have to enter M+ to gear up, what should never be needed for raids, now you can argue that you do not need to do M+ for raids, but doing so you gimp your self fast, and will soon notice that having sub 260 item level, will start to give you a hard time in raids.

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

At least nowdays they are adding more and more things to cash shops, So that every one has access to the items.

Which is a good thing imo.

I agree. Also, in Games like Destiny, Warframe and ESO the store is pretty fledged out. And you can also earn ingame currency to buy those store items via play.

In fact, I hope when the MS deal is done, they will expand the Store of WoW to the same Levels and Quality of ESO. With also a currency you can earn to buy from the store via play. Perhaps even adding a Timewalk-Playlists that is specifically for old content to be hard again in exchange for this store currency.

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

But would be nice with an easy version to actually see the bosses as well, People are just extremly stupid or outright afk in LFR and makes it just not enjoyable imo.

I can’t deny that LFR needs a rework. It is outdated. Personally, I think Blizzard should expand the “Guide” role you can select in the Dungeon-Browser and Raid-Browser more.

Imo, each LFR Raid and each Dungeon group created by the Browser should at least have 1-2 players with that Guide role. Also, listing with the Guide role should improve rewards and players should be able to rate those guides, similar to how the Endorsement System works in Overwatch. That way you can at least see the Quality of a Guide

@Korikasai-mirage-raceway

Don’t have any problems with hard content as long as the rewards are availables just from swiping the CC as well.

To each their own. But let me make an example from my experiences.

My PvP Title in Destiny 2. This title is called (fittingly) “Unbroken”. It requires you to play for 3 Seasons (each Season is 3 Months long) to reach “Legendary” Rank (maximum Rank) in the Competitive PvP Playlist. That means I had to play and grind and overcome better players in the most competitive Area of the Game for 9 Months, basically at least 7 Months (you can reach the Rank before End of Season and it counts instantly). Scattered over those 7 months I played maybe like 6-8 weeks for this title in each of those 3 Seasons to get it in the End.

Was it infuriating and blood-pressuring to play PvP on that high-competence level? Absolutely. I still remember my Neighbors complaining about my angry screaming.

Was it worth? Heck yeah! Because now everyone can see that I am not bad at PvP on the first glance.

@Weffi-silvermoon

biggest problem with raids are not only how complex the bosses can be, but also that there is no real linear way to gear up.
now normal raid should be a way to gear up for heroic raid, and heroic raid is where you gear up for mythic raids.
but this is not the case, due to how low number of items drop, bosses beeing locked for 7 days once killed.
you have to enter M+ to gear up, what should never be needed for raids, now you can argue that you do not need to do M+ for raids, but doing so you gimp your self fast, and will soon notice that having sub 260 item level, will start to give you a hard time in raids.

To add on that, I think WoW should take approaches from Destiny 2 or ESO. We should be able to reach maximum GS in every current Activity of the Game. It just should take, depending on the mode difficulty, differently long.

[Charctic-silvermoon]

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

Higher Difficulty = harder to get (done) = more Player Prestige

Players also buy this in WoW, prestige means almost nothing nowadays.

[Orisanct-silvermoon]

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

I got carried the first 3 bosses of Sepulcher without having to watch any video.

Fixed that for you. You’re doing DPS that can be beat by a healer.

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Orisanct-silvermoon

Fixed that for you. You’re doing DPS that can be beat by a healer.

Toxic man. Toxic. And not too spare with your Elitism.

We defeated them in a Team Effort. Not everyone needs to be a DD God to finish a Raid.