Asmongold is right RWF is ruining WoW

Community General Discussion
383

Ah! You two are engaged in what Harrison Jones would call

I concede on fact, and I even disagree with Jito’s graph; it oversimplifies. But there are marked cliffs of difficulty.

So Jito’s statement is very truthy in direction, if not factual in detail.

384

I mean; it is unfortunate :frowning: I am for a fun game for everyone. But i am doing my content with friends and nice welcomeing communities. I would love to have everyone such a nice experience in the game as i have.

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385

I don’t have to imagine, because that’s the only way I’ve ever played it; I don’t use DBM.

I disagree. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is going to entice me to do a normal or higher raid. And I think the same is true for the majority of the LFR players.

And for many it’s the only way they can do/see that content.
So why force them into something bad and frustrating?

Make a true story mode so everyone who has no interest in raiding can do that.
And then LFR can be made into a true entry level raid; or hell, for all I care LFR can be removed then and they can make Normal be the thing you can queue for; I don’t care what they do in such a case because I would never raid again.

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386

They can, if they put in the effort to make friends. Most people don’t do that.

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387

No they can’t if they don’t enjoy raiding.
I wouldn’t enjoy raiding even if I did it with my RL friends (I know this for a fact, because I have).

388

So, you quoted me saying ‘they can’ and tried to turn it into an argument. Cute.

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389

No? I’m saying your claim is wrong. For the reason I stated.
I could make all the friends in the world, but it wouldn’t get me to enjoy raiding.
That’s all.

390

Perhaps you’d like to try to explain wtf my comment had to do with raiding. I’ll wait…

391

Last time I checked raiding is ‘content’. And since this thread is about that… Well…
You’re welcome.

All I’m saying is that ‘doing something with friends’ doesn’t automatically make something enjoyable. If you hate - insert an activity - chances are you’re going to hate it no matter who you do it with.

392

Tbh, I don’t know Raids any differently most the time.

I take again the Raids I played in Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 for reference.

In the Vault of Glass (D1):

  • You fail to defend the Confluxes? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy the Oracles? Your team wipes.
  • You have been seen by a Gorgon? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to defend the Confluxes at Gatekeeper? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy the Oracles at Atheon? Your team wipes.

In Crotas End (D1):

  • You fail to stand under the Bridge Totems before they charge fully up? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to kill Ir Yûr at Crotas Crystal before her Song is complete? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy the Oversoul of Crota? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to defeat Crota before he enrages? Your team wipes.

(Sidenote: The players in this video a mechanic of the Bridge part with an exploit. Yes, it is kinda sad to see that the Destiny community is so exploit-happy when it comes to PvE and PvP… But that is why I said here or in an other Thread that players will always chose the “path of lowest resistance” to get loot or an activity in a game done.)

In Kingsfall (D1):

  • You fail to Solve the Plate-Charge Mechanic at Warpriest Pre-phase? Your team wipes.
  • You fail the Deathsingers Dirge? Your team wipes.
  • You fail the Taken Bombs at Oryx? Your team wipes (manually lol).
  • You fail to stun Oryx Chestbuster? Your team wipes.

In Wrath of the Machine (D1):

  • You fail to destroy the Nanite Screen at Warpriest? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy all Servitors in Time at Aksis Pre-Phase? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to defeat Axis within 4 Plate Rotations? Your team wipes.

In Leviathan (D2) (Vaulted Raid Content):

  • You fail to defeat a Royal Psion in Royal Baths, Menagerie or Calus Throne Room in time? Your team wipes
  • You fail the Menagerie Portals? Your team wipes (manually again lol).
  • You fail to kill the Royal Garden Hounds in Time? Your team wipes (partially, depends if you are in Safe-Room or not).
  • You fail to destroy Calus Overshield in Time? Your team wipes (granted, this is hard to fail, but still counts)

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

In Eater of Worlds (Destiny 2) (Vaulted Raid Content):

  • You fail to solve the jumping Puzzle? Your team (soft) wipes.
  • You fail to destroy Argos Weak Points? Your team wipes.

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

In Spire of Stars (Destiny 2) (Vaulted Raid Content):

  • You fail to clear the Royal Cabal Terminals in Time? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to cleanse yourself by passing an Orb from player to player (all) and then throw that orb at the boss to stun the Boss (yes, it was as hard as it sounds) in a set amount of time? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy the Cabal Carriers in the correct order? Your team wipes.

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

In Crown of Sorrow (Destiny 2) (Vaulted Raid Content):

  • You fail to destroy the Hive Crystals in Time? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy the Hive Crystals in Time on the Jumping Puzzle? Your team (soft) wipes.
  • You fail to stun Ghalran by shooting his Hands? Your team wipes.

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

In Scourge of the Past (Destiny 2) (Vaulted Raid Content):

  • You fail to recharge the Fallen Antennas in Time? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to bring at least 1 Player through the Servitor-Hunt Puzzle? Your team wipes (one by one).
  • You fail to recharge the Fallen Antennas in Time at Boss Pre-Phase? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to disrupt the Fallen Computers with the correct Buff at Boss Pre-Phase? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to do enough damage to the Boss Pre-Phase to carry over into the next Rotation? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to recharge the Fallen Antennas in Time at Boss Phase? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to stand in the correct groups with the team buffs before applying damage to the Boss in Damage Phase? Your team wipes (one by one, applies only to wrong located groups)

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

In Last Wish (Destiny 2):

  • You fail to hide as a Team from Kalis Orthogonal Weapon? Your team wipes (unless someone gets into one of the 6 safe rooms and revives players, but those require to do the pre-mechanic to be done correctly)
  • You fail to deal enough damage in Shuro-Chi’s Phase? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to extend the Death Timer by solving Puzzle Mechanics in Shuro-Chi’s Phase. Your team wipes.
  • One of you gets knocked off the map in Shuro-Chi’s Phase with the Crystal? Your team wipes (because the Crystal is stuck out of map in a Map-Killbox).
  • You fail to clear corruption at Morgeth? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to unlock Parts of the Vault in Time? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to solve Rivens Mechanic in the Rivens Mechanic right order or shoot her eyes all at once by accident? Your team wipes. (Sidenote: Not played in the video. They use an exploit to skip that part since it is incredibly hard. Even the Devs admitted it is too hard and left the exploit in the game for the players instead of nerfing the mechanics complexity.)
  • You fail to destroy Rivens Black Hearth in time? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to deliver Rivens Hearth to the Exorcism Hall before the last Player is ported into the Dimension? Your team wipes.

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

In Garden of Salvation (Destiny 2):

  • You fail to pick up the Unstable Core in Time? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to protect the Confluxes from Enemies sacrificing at the Portal-Crossroads? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to to pick up the Unstable Core left behind by the Consecrated Mind in Time? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy all Consecrated Mind Eyes in the Damage Phase in time before damage phase? Your team wipes (as far as I know).
  • You fail to defend the Confluxes at the Sanctified Mind from Enemies sacrificing? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to stun the Sanctified Mind via the Vex-Connection-Protocol? Your team wipes.

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

In Deep Stone Crypt (Destiny 2):

  • Your Operator/Scanner fails to shoot/call out the correct Terminals? Your team wipes.
  • Your team shoots the wrong Fuse? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to stun the right Atraks-1 in time? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to push out the Meta-Organic Bombs (purple orbs) out of the Airlock before it detonates? Your team wipes (as far as I know).
  • Your team fails the Last Stand against Atraks-1? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to pick up and deliver the Nuclear Cores to the Nuclear Decompositors in time? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to get one player into the safe room before the space station crash lands on the Moon Europa? Your team wipes (sidenote: you need to be literally dumb af to fail this since the way to that room is a straight line).
  • Your team fails to pick up and deliver the Nuclear Cores to the Nuclear Decompositors in time in the final Boss fight? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to defeat Tankis, the Abomination in Last Stand? Your team wipes.

In Vault of Glass (Destiny 2):

  • You fail to defend the Confluxes? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy the Oracles in the correct order? Your team wipes.
  • You have been seen by a Gorgon? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to defend the Confluxes or lose the Relict for too long at Gatekeeper? Your team wipes.
  • You fail to destroy the Oracles in the correct order or lose the Relict for too long at Atheon? Your team wipes.

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

In Vow of the Disciple (Destiny 2):

  • Your team fails to solve the 26-Symbols Puzzle at the Obelisks in time? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to solve the 26-Symbols Puzzle at the Obelisks at the Caretaker before the Caretaker reaches the Obelisk? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to defeat the Caretaker in Final Stand before the Caretaker reaches the final Obelisk? Your team dies.
  • Your team fails to reach the next room in the 3-Relics-Pathway before time expires? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to complete the 3-Relics-Pathway in time? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails the 26-Symbol Puzzle at the Rhulk, the First Disciple? Your team wipes.
  • Your team fails to destroy the Weak-Points of Rhulk, the First Disciple before a certain Encounter Part? Your team wipes (as far as I know).
  • Your team fails to defeat Rhulk, the First Disciple in the Last Stand in Time? Your team wipes.

Additional Ruleset

  • You fail to revive any Teammate within 2:30 Minutes? Your team wipes. (Timer does not reset after any Death and Revives are limited by 6 - 1 for each Player)

Edit: Also, all players dying in a “Darkness Zone” in any Raid counts as Wipe too. Just not as a Wipe Mechanic.

I disagree. In the Destiny community some of exceptionally good players take on the Challenge of playing perfect. May it be playing the high competitive PvP team modes alone vs a full team, playing Raids and Dungeons alone or even beating Raid bosses with very specific buils and loadouts… For example, defeating the Raid Boss Riven alone with Melee only… In a RPG-Loot-Shooter. Some of them even play the entire game without dying once (I know WoW has a similar community challenge with Classic).

Difficulty can be mandatory. It can also be a choice :slight_smile:

393

I don’t know why did you bring Destiny into discussion. Completely pointless.

If you play with 19 other players and killing boss is 100% dependand on EVERYONE playing perfectly then every pull is like:
first 3 minutes - OK
now “that” mechanic appears
one of 20 players fails
instant wipe
ress
rebuff
sigh
dbm pull

and for another 50 pulls until everyone fails this 2-3 times
that was so tiresome I quit raiding, I don’t have patience nor I want game to force me to play perfectly

mythic raiding obviously shouldn’t be easy, but making all bosses unforgivable is just making progress really tiresome and highly dependand on weak auras, sorry, but this is stupid - this is freakin’ fantasy game not timer and math simulator

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394

There you can read why.

You know Mythic Raiding is optional? You don’t have to do it. That you stopped because of frustration is understandable.

I think someone here in this thread said that the problem with (Mythic) Raids in WoW is, that the Devs have to design around Addons like WeakAuras because players use them to play Raids more easier. Which is something Blizzard apparently doesn’t want. That the difficulty gets trivialized because of certain Addons.

Edit: In other words this is an “addon creep” cycle.

And they can’t prevent that Addon-Usage for the certain Addons without disabling the entire Addon-API ingame for everyone. And that would be even worse than a “Top 5%” player problem.

395

I don’t get why the hell people say anything within game is “optional”. Everything is optional, I don’t have to play the game xD

I’ll explain you something. Most players play to make their char better, that’s the nature of RPG games. How can you progress your char? By getting better gear. For that you have few routes:

  • rated arenas
  • rated bg
  • M+
  • Raiding

Ok, but while getting better gear you want to have fun. If you don’t, you will just quit that path. From my experience:

  • arenas - I still like them to certain degree, but I don’t play over the top char (disc priest) and I don’t wanna join metaslave club, so my PvP ilvl doesn’t improve, I don’t play arenas for gear, just for pure fun
  • M+ - I like them cause they’re quick runs with small group of friends, but in terms of gearing hunting that one specific item and constantly not seeing it is a big let down, another source of gear I’m ignoring (don’t start me with Casino Vault)
  • Mythic Raids - ah yes, I liked raiding a lot, but at some point I realized how it was stress inducing… everything’s going fine, we got this and… oneshot mechanic causing whole raid to wipe, and you can’t even improve, I was the log-person, in many cases different people messed up the same mechanic which finally caused me to see Mythic Raiding as “wipe until biggest noob will get it”.

There is no in-between, in the past if few players died it was still possible to finish boss, not doing mechanics properly caused more damage to heal through, but still it was possible to win. I’ve read Halondrus mythic mechanics - no way I will ever do that encounter. What’s the gain? Lots of stress, a CHANCE for item, scheduling your life around raiding and watching 3 weak auras, 5 timers and 4 circles on the ground while doing dps and/or hps.

If you find it fun, OK, I don’t, we have different opinions, but I know and see more and more people resigning from mythic raiding since it’s all about extreme tryharding. This experience is not worth its cost.

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396

I can understand that. I am not a fan of PvP myself and try to stay away from it as good as possible.

Then you and others should band together to pressure Blizzard into reworking Loot drop rates and loot in general. A stance I have been supporting on several occasions in this forum now.

Solving the Symptom is not removing the Problems Source.

And that’s the reason why I say “don’t play it then”. Why? Because Blizzard will see the player numbers drop and realize on their own that something is wrong. Sometimes you don’t have to go into a forum and make hundrets of posts. Sometimes the simplest and most efficient way is to not play the content so they either rework or abandon it.

I can’t say anything about Mythic Raid experience, because I don’t play Mythic Raids at all. For a good reason. From my perspective they are the “content for the best of the best pve players”. Similar how Trials of Osiris Flawless in Destiny 1 and 2 once was “for the best of the best PvP players”.

Another Analogy from Destiny 2. Trials of Osiris suffered from Skill Creep because Casuals and mediocre Players had a super hard time competing there. People stopped playing. The playlist was almost dead when Bungie reworked the Playlist to make it more casual friendly.

What does this teach us? Just don’t play Mythic Raids. And wait. In a few months or perhaps a year (depends on Blizzards reaction time) they will adjust the Balance to be more in line with the actual players.

I don’t even know why you push the “you are disagreeing with me” position so much. All I did was responding to your point “Team Punishment is bad”. Which is normal for me in almost every other game. Nothing that usually goes over the top.

397

Except there’s not enough “best pve players” for all guilds that want to raid mythic. Even back in wotlk it was a problem getting enough good people for heroic 25-man lich king. I did quite a few tries on him but eventually I stopped because people just weren’t getting the fight, we recruitted new people after old players quit due to burnout and then we had to start over progress again, wiping to defiles, again. Like, no. I gave raiding a try again in cataclysm and I just stopped raiding after that.

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398

Ok, so that I get it right… The problem for most of you is:

  • (Mythic) Raids are too hard and people quit

And your mostly consensus solution is:

  • Make (Mythic) Raids easier

Instead of:

  • Make Gear matter less for Power?
    OR
  • Make Gear easier to get?
399

It’s that it requires scheduling and that it’s strictly 20-man for me. If you lose people, you’ll have to replace them with people that likely are new to the fight(s) and suddenly you’re reprogressing what you were clearing in prior lockouts, I’ve seen this happen in quite a few guilds of people I know who raided mythic in CN. I don’t wish to re-live what I went through at lich king. One guy’s guild were at denathrius on mythic and progressing on him, then some people quit and suddenly they’re not getting past sludgefist after the reset when they had new people, it took them over a month to get back to where they were prior to people quitting.

I also don’t like sitting around and waiting to play a game.

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400

Ok, alternative suggestion. Sounds perhaps rude but what about teaching and training new players in the first place to get them on the same competence level?

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401

I play it as way to spend time together with friends from WoW.

But I said already I don’t raid. I don’t make threads about that, but I do reply in such threads.

Agreed.

I don’t push it, I’m just accepting you see this differently and I explain how I see it.

I don’t like that punishments are binary.

Make mistakes less punishable for raid, don’t force perfection, leave that to last bosses.

I also don’t push my feedback about raids too much since scheduling is the biggest reason I don’t play. 10 man raids would be the only thing that would probably bring me back to this type of content.

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402

I’d rather not raid. It takes too long to get back to where you were when people quit in addition to having to play by a schedule.