Baine dishonours the Horde

[Malaficus-argent-dawn]

I agree with that, but that’s also the major part that bugs me with the Sylvanas writing and where I see she’s just blatantly being villainbatted instead of keeping her the ‘anti hero’ she was from WC3 up until Cataclysm.

She was a supporter of freedom and free wil, but now one of her strongest principles is suddenly discarded…because, well the plot demands it.

They’re so adamant on making the Alliance look good and righteous that even former events get wiped away to turn everything about her pitch black and that shadow falls over the rest of the Horde as fallout.

I agree.
Dont get my wrong my charater still wants her dead.
But as a player i find sylvanas being turned into a moron unacceptable.

[Kixen-stormscale]

She was a supporter of freedom and free wil, but now one of her strongest principles is suddenly discarded…because, well the plot demands it.

They did the exact same thing with Garrosh. He was super salty about the faction his father had been the first to drink the demon blood, the cursed power, and it was the only thing he seemed to hate about the orcs. Then has his own people try to use a cursed power in the Sha. Total 180 because the plot demands it even if it makes zero sense for that character to behave that way.

As you say, they are having Sylvanas do Exactly the same thing. Her deal was she differentiated herself from the scourge, who she hated above all others, because she gave free will. Now because the plots demands it. 180 that sh*t!

I’m not sure if it’s just lazy writing, bending everything to fit the narrative they are trying to push or if it’s more pernicious in that it’s a deliberate attempt to retcon characters and twist them to reflect the writers perception. The only defense I can give them is there have been several writing team changes between war3 and the present and if we accept that everyone interprets things in their own way it’s inevitable that characters are going to change in consequence of that. That said these two examples go way beyond something that can be excused in this way.

[Coupedegrace-neptulon]

Truest words spoken in this thread!

[Blunderhoof-nordrassil (Blunderhoof)]

I see, brother Tauren. If I levelled up this character, there would be no problem!

[Seriously though, I’m trying to desensitise people to the idea that Baine will be Warchief. It’s inevitable at this point imho ]

Well, I don’t know if he’ll be the next Warchief, it’s certainly possible, regardless of how many dislike that idea.

I do however believe that in order for him to actually get to that point he’ll (have to )undergo some changes wich will make him less the naive boy character he is, and not quite the Warchief Baine you’re picturing im right now.

They did the exact same thing with Garrosh. He was super salty about the faction his father had been the first to drink the demon blood, the cursed power, and it was the only thing he seemed to hate about the orcs. Then has his own people try to use a cursed power in the Sha. Total 180 because the plot demands it even if it makes zero sense for that character to behave that way.

As you say, they are having Sylvanas do Exactly the same thing. Her deal was she differentiated herself from the scourge, who she hated above all others, because she gave free will. Now because the plots demands it. 180 that sh*t!

I’m not sure if it’s just lazy writing, bending everything to fit the narrative they are trying to push or if it’s more pernicious in that it’s a deliberate attempt to retcon characters and twist them to reflect the writers perception. The only defense I can give them is there have been several writing team changes between war3 and the present and if we accept that everyone interprets things in their own way it’s inevitable that characters are going to change in consequence of that. That said these two examples go way beyond something that can be excused in this way.

I know, and I agree.
I Hated SoO (And Cairne being thrown onto the bonfire of the story’s plot…only to be replaced by Baine, wich turned out to be a huge letdown, or even bigger as Cairne was unused and passive for pretty much his WoW ‘lifetime’).
I was, and still am, very sceptical about the whole ‘Garrosh was Always set up to be the bad guy’ story that they told us, but I came to accept it.
He was a new character and at the time, this was a newish kind of story(atleast in WoW), Thrall made a mistake in picking a succesor and drama ensuid, all that stuff.

The story left much to be desired, atleast for me, but you know, even that I can place, because we can’t all like the same stuff.

But now, they go around and pull the same ‘trick’ twice, in such a relatively short time…I mean, yes, I get that th writing teams have changed over time, but it’s just such a dull, unsurprising and unlikeable plot, we’ve been there, seen it, but hey …uhm, its not going to be the same…okay, in actuallity….it’s kind of the same thing, but you’re going to enjoy it this time…oh and Horde players need to be taught a lesson!(lol)

[Kixen-stormscale]

(And Cairne being thrown onto the bonfire of the story’s plot…only to be replaced by Baine, wich turned out to be a huge letdown, or even bigger as Cairne was unused and passive for pretty much his WoW ‘lifetime’).

Biggest character waste in the franchise in my opinion. Vol’jin was a bad one because they had him step up when most people don’t know who the guy was prior to assassination attempt scenario but Cairne was killed off screen, to forcefully push dislike onto another horde character in a way that no matter how you look at it, doesn’t make sense. By which I mean, Cairne’s character was basically wise, honourable and experienced. That he did no investigating and just straight up accuses someone as relatively simple minded as Garrosh is absurd. Which is what you’d expect out of a emotionally driven, naive fool, i.e. the total opposite to what Cairne was portrayed to be.

[Erevien-die-aldor (Erevien)]

[Seriously though, I’m trying to desensitise people to the idea that Baine will be Warchief. It’s inevitable at this point imho ]

I stay in denial till it happens.

I agree with that, but that’s also the major part that bugs me with the Sylvanas writing and where I see she’s just blatantly being villainbatted instead of keeping her the ‘anti hero’ she was from WC3 up until Cataclysm.

Literally blizzards writing since mop. Disappointed really.

The Kul’tirans were mostly innocent-!..… tugs at the collar is it unbearably hot suddenly? Can’t we make peace with Boralus?

No. Ten characters. starts casting Pyroblast

My peaceful ways are too much for the Mag’har and their warlike culture. Between their 20 soldiers, they will be able to defeat the combined Horde-Alliance forces.

Mag’har will save us all from getting even more humanized.

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

starts casting Pyroblast

[Daelinna-argent-dawn]

No. The blood of a new generation cannot atone for genocide. The orcish barbarians and their foul allies have committed counless transgressions against us, starting with the death of the noble Daelin Proudmoore. It is clear now that we will have peace only once their misbegotten kin is exterminated.

It appears that the new Lord Admiral is too blinded by her “friendship” with the cow. How many bombs does she need to wake up? To realize that the Horde doesn’t deserve to exist?

[Erevien-die-aldor (Erevien)]

Calm down female Arctur.

[Daelinna-argent-dawn]

Sure, let us forget a decade of war and destruction brought by the orcs when they willingly surrendered themselves to the Legion. Let us forget when Daelin was slaughtered at Theramore by a throng of savages.

[Coupedegrace-neptulon]

Oh no, I can’t. Every time I read your posts, can’t help to not hear Lady Ashvane voice… Cringy

[Okanta-argent-dawn]

I missed Arctur more than I realise. There always needs to be someone to shoot other races down and make sure only Humans rise.

[Hendrick-draenor (Hendrick)]

Going behind the warchief’s back and usurping her plot because he finds it distasteful is not honourable by any stretch of the imagination. If he hated it so much and wanted to be honourable about it then he should have smashed Derek back into the grave when she did it, confronted her there and then and said “yeah, we’re not doing that”

I don’t think honour is in Sylvanas’ book. She only cares for obedience and doesn’t give a hoot about the limits of ethics - she’s obsessed with what she wants, and cares not about how to get it. Such trivial sentiments are beyond the practical nature of the undead.

Not sure if its Baine who doesn’t understand what honour is or the writers but that action being done under the guise of anything approximating honour is a bad joke.

He does, but I’m not sure you do.
Look, I don’t agree with his actions because it’s so petty to care about one corpse in this whole mess, and if he is so opposed to Sylvanas he should try and kill her and end it once and for all. But, OP, I get the feeling you don’t see the difference between loyalty/obedience and honour - they do not necessarily match.

If there is a sickness in the horde it’s probably that every time someone disagrees with the actions of someone else they are pulling this kind of nonsense.

The sickness is a lack of unity and racial leaders… and the whispers of an old god.

[Rangoor-argent-dawn (Rangoor)]

Let us forget when countless Kul Tiran men were slaughtered at Theramore by a throng of savages.

Already done! : D

[Essential-burning-legion]

Honor is the motive of the horde. Baine has acted like a true member of the Horde and i loved it. Sylvanas is one sneaky peaky honorless elf and her promotion to warchief was one big mistake. Sylvanas fits for bad character, not a leader of the faction, she should end as old god servant and end up being raid boss.

[Erevien-die-aldor (Erevien)]

It wasn’t a bad idea, blizzard wasn’t simply not able to make up a reason smart enough to make her grow and stay in that position. Just like with Garrosh. So they went the easy route and villain batted her into oblivion.

[Essential-burning-legion]

I’m sure Sylvanas’ promotion is intended because Blizzard has plans for her. I think we will have the same story as with Garrosh, Sylvanas will be after powerful artifact which is Xal’ atath now, and she will lose her mind going after it. She will be mind controlled by N’zoth etc.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

You can argue that what Baine did is shady, but it would have brought him greater dishonor to let the plan run its course.

When Cairne found himself under a similar dilemma, he challenged Garrosh there and then.
In a way that didn’t cause any kind of collateral damage and with the openness of a honest challenge towards some negative reasoning or action.

Baine went behind the Hordes back, to kill soldiers that were probably just following orders (they literally tell us so), and in a situation where the Horde is already facing increasingly adverse odds.

That throws the wrong kind of image. Almost as if Baine was scared to face the consequences of his acts as well as the resolve to face problems openly.
For someone that preaches about the honourable way, that certainly doesn’t sound like it.

Baine could’ve been more redeemed from Horde players POV, if they had skipped this whole thing and jumped directly to a point where he challenges Sylvanas, fails, and is imprisoned.
End result would’ve been the same and people wouldn’t have the feeling about having some Horde leader backstabbing his allies, and killing his comrades out of deference towards someone that has just killed Zandalars king and raided their city.

[Kixen-stormscale]

I don’t think honour is in Sylvanas’ book. She only cares for obedience and doesn’t give a hoot about the limits of ethics - she’s obsessed with what she wants, and cares not about how to get it. Such trivial sentiments are beyond the practical nature of the undead.

I don’t disagree. But I am not talking about Sylvanas. I am talking about Baine.

He does, but I’m not sure you do.
Look, I don’t agree with his actions because it’s so petty to care about one corpse in this whole mess, and if he is so opposed to Sylvanas he should try and kill her and end it once and for all. But, OP, I get the feeling you don’t see the difference between loyalty/obedience and honour - they do not necessarily match.

Well I have defined honour on more than one occasion. You are welcome to advise how my definition of it is mistaken.

Until then I am really just seeing another person trying to excuse Baine lack of honour with the “but Sylvanas!” Defense. Which isn’t s valid defence.

I also never said he was wrong to do what he did morally speaking. My sole point is that he is a hypocrite.

The sickness is a lack of unity and racial leaders… and the whispers of an old god.

If the sickness is a lack of unity then Baine actively sabotaging his allies is a front runner for the worst culprit.

[Aethil-thrall]

kill soldiers that were probably just following orders (they literally tell us so)

The excuse didn’t work for the Wehrmacht soldiers tried for warcrimes, why would it work for forsaken doing even worse things?