It sure sounds just like him. Its scary to think he has duplicated somewhere along the way!
2 Likes
All blood elf players in the world are the same person. It’s the final redpill.
5 Likes
-belf- check
-salty- check
-zombie fanboy- check
-raving- double check
Seems the same allright.
6 Likes
Its rather sad that as the offspring of one of the pillars of the Horde values he states to represent, Baine still feels like pulling this sort of stunts.
And worst of all, expecting to bring any sort of sympathy for it (beyond the forced one writers are stilling upon certain characters).
I mean, he just handed a courtesy to the woman that had just led a raid into Zuldazar. And killed their king.
Talanji at least should be downright pissed.
He should’ve fought Sylvanas openly. Like his father did.
Yeah, he would’ve risked a lot, but he would at least been honourable. The kind of honourable he preaches about.
Going behind her back to pull this sort of thing isn’t honourable. Its not even intelligent nor empathetic to the Horde plea at the moment.
EDIT 2: First Edit isn’t an issue anymore. Although it remains a lingering worry to know that sort of things may happen.
3 Likes
Three points I will address that appear to have popped up in some form through the thread thus far;
Baine didn’t behave dishonourably – What Baine did is tantamount to sabotaging his ally in a time of war, when they really are losing that war. I love the quote “Honor Krom’gar, no matter how dire the battle… never forsake it.” but as honor is basically living up to the standards of your people forthrightly, with dignity and respect and Baine was sneaking around letting other take the blame for active and intentional sabotage of strategy, that’s distinctly dishonourable. The argument that killing Derek Proudmoore would also be dishonorable is to say that he couldn’t have smashed the body before reanimation or while Derek was screaming in horror of his new situation, he wouldn’t have preferred to have been left dead. Good luck with either of those. In any case the crux of my problem is Baine can’t claim the horde has a sickness that is dishonor when he just committed the most treacherous act to the horde since the events of MoP. Mr Pot, Mr Kettle is calling you…
Honor vs Honor / Sylvanas isn’t behaving honorably – There seems to be some confusion about Sylvanas so let me just quash this “debate” right here. Sylvanas was never honourable. If you are expecting that out of her character the problem is You, not her. The entirely controversy of her being made warchief was that she is so devious that she embodies honor, one of the core ideals of the horde, the one of the least of all the horde’s factional leaders. The reason she is nonetheless an effective (effective, not “good”) leader however is that she can get @%$# done even against superior enemies. See War3 the frozen throne for further details. Still no matter how I spin this argument in my head I don’t really understand how it matters if she’s honorable or not. Spies are not honorable, yet essential in any war. Should the horde ban all uses of spies? Seems like Baine is drawing an arbitraty line in the sand for no particular reason other than to be outraged.
It’s for the good of the horde – This is actually my biggest problem with Baine’s actions. This is actually the worst thing anyone could do “for the horde” Baine is acting entirely out of what he envisions the horde to be and because Sylvanas threatens that image he’s even willing to side with their enemy to stop her. Now, I can’t fault he is acting out of his perceived morality, but if everyone were to act accordance with their believes even if that meant going against allies, I don’t think there would be a Horde at all because that is total anarchy. Anyone who has done the Hillsbrad Foothills campaign and remembers what happens when the forsaken ask for help from the Frostwolves, they said no because of what they perceived the forsaken to be. That happens a few times over, there won’t be anymore forsaken. What if the blood elves decide not to help out the orcs anymore, Sylvanas was once their ranger general who made the ultimate sacrifice for them whatever else she became. Then those orcs get wiped out, and thus a cycle is born. Acting in your own self interests is one thing. Acting in your own self interests deliberately to the detriment of your allies is something else entirely.
5 Likes
This thread is visible again. You are welcome.
2 Likes
Nicely put.
Don’t know if you are new to these forums or just an alt of an already active forum poster, but I must say it’s impressive how articulate and on point your opinion regarding the matter is.
Like, really.Kudos.
Have a like. ![:clap:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/clap.png?v=6" ":clap:")
So is it honourable to follow a leader one even when it conflicts when what one believes is right? So what exactly is honour then? “My master/country, right or wrong”? What if the person believes differently? Is he acting dishonourably now, even though, in his view, he is honourable?
Is Sylvanas really an effective leader? She has quite a few significant failures on her. Her overconfidence in controlling Varimathras lead to the Wrathgate, she failed to conquer Gilneas.
4 Likes
The Moderation has said there were no reported players on this thread, it was the miss-firing of the anti spam system. Proof will be provided to you on request, via discord or battle net, feel free. I do believe you owe certain players certain apologies.
6 Likes
Well, then I was wrong about the mass reports coming from someone else, which resulted in a hidden thread. Thankfully, I didn’t make any public accusations before I knew the truth. 
5 Likes
Well, the important thing is that the problem is solved, and that the debate may continue.
3 Likes
On topic - I do believe that Baine has betrayed the Horde to an extent. However; I’d like to talk about the most important character in all of this.
Queen Talanji.
She was not at ease with Derek Proudmoore as it gave her flashbacks to what Yazma did to Rezan. I think, any forms of revenge against the Alliance, should have been done on Queen Talanji’s terms.
Sylvanas and Nathanos are not the leaders of Zuldazar and they know that Talanji will not simply bow down to them. They should have allowed the Queen to make the decisions.
1 Like
Acting honourably.
Siding openly against said leader is honourable. Going behind their back to “backstab” them, as per what both Orcs and Tauren consider honourable, is not.
Individual morals and special circumstances aside.
Getting Horde soldiers killed out of passiveness or by direct action, isn’t honourable.
The way Cairne challenged Garrosh was the honourable way.
What Baine did, as per their own definition of honour, it’s not.
And I’m not following anything I personally feel like the objective honour. This is honour for Tauren and Orcs.
By their own definition, what Baine did is not honourable.
Very well, let’s play.
I won’t defend Baine here, but how do you think he should have carried things out? For some reason, once again, Sylvanas has this wierd thing that makes people quiet and fear for their lives in which not even Thrall and Garrosh could have done.
If killing Derek outright would have been ‘dishonourable’, and letting him back to his family was the same, then what is the ‘honourable’ in this case? Is following Sylvanas no matter your principles the more ‘honourable’ way?
I don’t think so. Personally, I think that’s just as much honourable as staying quiet in the whole ordeal.
And this is why the matter of Honour is stupid and shouldn’t be used in any argument. Baine’s actions are better off seen as acts of preservation than downright causes of honour.
Let’s see…
If we go by the most famous edict of European visions of honour, then the Horde is f*cked and has been metagaming since its inception. However, other visions of honour promote it.
Give me a solid definition of what ‘honour’ is and i’ll call it quits.
Acting despite them becoming the opposition of your interests and beliefs could also be seen as a detriment to the values of your race and kin.
I won’t lie. Baine’s actions are bad. And stupid. But he’s doing something and that’s okay. The fact that those things are happening to Sylvanas alone makes HIS actions connected to what the Horde is doing, and that is what angers Horde players.
If Sylvanas wasn’t involved with the efforts, or is minorly so, I would bet that no one would bat an eye.
3 Likes
Is it though?
Why is being ‘open’ about resistance more honourable than working against your opposition for what you believed was right?
Is it the whole idea of stealth and subterfuge that gets peoples blood boiling, or the fact that Baine is doing something to oppose Sylvanas at all?
In the same form of ethics, if ‘openess’ is a virtue which defines what is honourable to an Orc, then why do Orcs have Garona? Have developed the Shattered Hand into Rogues and Assassins?
4 Likes
Why is one honourable and the other not? Who decided that? The players, or an in-universe character?
2 Likes
Honestly, the only reference where I saw that defined stealthing as dishonorable was when Warlord Bloodhilt went against Warlord Gardul for hiding in a tower.
And that was during Garrosh years.
To be fair, that was less stealth and more being too afraid to act when nee-…Huh! Interesting.
That moment when that quest alone sums up this whole ‘Honour’ vs ‘Dishonour’ argument means. Plus the sillyness.